According to an interview he gave (see below) the Pope denied the divinity of Jesus. If he did we have a serious problem. If he did not, then why doesn’t he step forward, clarify what he said and clearly affirm the teaching of Scripture and the constant teaching/dogma of the Church? Either way — if he said it or if he doesn’t speak out clearly — either way we have a serious problem.

i do not believe for a moment that the pope denies the divinity of Christ and I hope he corrects the record soon. The facts and issues are stated clearly below — at least what we know at this point. Written from Rome by a good and trusted friend Thomas Williams.

The Vatican Refutes Pope’s Denial of Christ’s Divinity


ROME — The Vatican issued a statement Wednesday refuting claims Pope Francis had denied the divinity of Jesus Christ, saying the words attributed to the pontiff were a “free interpretation” of what he actually said.

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On Wednesday, journalist Eugenio Scalfari published an essay in the Italian daily La Repubblica declaring, among other things, that the pope told him that he believes that Jesus of Nazareth was an exceptional man, but not God incarnate.

“As has already been stated on other occasions, the words that Dr. Eugenio Scalfari attributes in quotation marks to the Holy Father during talks with him cannot be considered a faithful account of what was actually said, but represent rather a personal and free interpretation of what he heard, as is quite evident from what was written today about the divinity of Jesus Christ,” reads the statement by papal spokesman Matteo Bruni.

According to Scalfari, founder of La Repubblica, “Pope Francis conceives the Christ as Jesus of Nazareth, a man, not God incarnate. Once he took flesh, Jesus ceased to be a God and became a man until his death on the cross.”

For the whole article click here .

Another article here.


This Post Has 15 Comments

  1. James

    STEVE RAY HERE: It would be easy for the Pope to set it straight. Why keep interviewing with A man who continually miss represent you? And when he does, why not make it straight and use it as a teaching moment for the faithful people of God? Hopefully he will do this.


    I wouldn't be so confident he does believe in the divinity of Jesus – though it's likely. He's had several interviews with this guy and knows either A) His works will get severely twisted B) slightly twisted or C) it's the truth. The last time the Vatican seemed to indicate it was choice A.

    Now Steve, let's say Ed Pentin interviewed you and said you were promoting the heresy that hell does not exist nor does anyone go there. He then posts this on the National Catholic Register as a legitimate article as well as the Washington Post. And surely you would immediately write an article declaring that is false, and go on air publicly to refute the falsities, which Francis has never personally addressed – only the Vatican in very weak handed responses. Are you going to let him interview you again the next year? Surely you aren't so stupid and gullible?

    I find it incredibly hard to believe Pope Francis is that stupid and gullible. There is definitely something else going on here. Francis is certainly an intellectual man – we shouldn't assume him to be so incredibly stupid and naive as we often do to explain him baffling actions away. Not only that, this time nothing was denied – only that in the past there have been issues with this atheist. This whole series of talks they have wreaks of Marxist strategy. They know the big headline is the initial one, but to satisfy the "conservatives" they at some point issue some sort of half-retraction (Bishop Schneider got this for the Plurality of Religions questioning).

  2. Jim S. Lim

    Wow. Another one of those waste-of-time accusations. These people are Media hungry and fomenting division. If the pope were to address all these lunatics accusations one by one, he'll be doing nothing else but explaining and defending himself.

    This is the work of the devil, which wants to force the vicar on the defensive for the silliest of accusations. Even a typical lax Catholic like me will not think of Jesus as only man. What absurdity!

    These types of accusations are seeking to undermine the teaching authority of the pope by planting seeds of doubts.

    STEVE RAY HERE: Jim, not sure if you read the article or are aware of the gravity of this issue and many others surrounding this Pope. We are in critical times. No one loves the Papacy more than I — which is precisely why those following events are concerned.

  3. Gail McNaughton

    It is mu understanding, from the last time Scalfari interviewed the Pope in March, 1918, that he never records interviews, or takes detailed notes. In other words, he is careful to NOT have any proof of what he claims was said in the interviews. I doubt that his take on Pope Francis’ statements is accurate. However, I agree that allowing any more interviews after the one in March 2018 is unbelievably foolish, and the absence of any public correction by the Vatican is even worse than foolish.

  4. Petar_Croatia


    Petar, I am certainly not jumping on any bandwagon but I am observing what’s going on in the Vatican. We have serious problems with this pontificate and anybody who denies it is burying their head in the sand. You also need to check your theology. Jesus was not only God at the incarnation but also through his whole life and after his resurrection. There was never a time when he was not God. If the pope said that, we have serious problems. If he did not say it, and he needs to come out in public and straighten it out since the whole world is talking about it now.


    Steve, you are bigger then this, please dont jump on this train where everything now Pope does is wrong, when accuastions like this from atheist free mason are taken to be truth, please, be voice of clarity.
    Im nor in agreement with everything what Pope does, but this is starting to going out of the control and it is from devil`s playbook, he wants to divide us even more, Vatican yesterday came with explanation about this.

    when you consider who told this story, you can clearly see what pope acutally said and ment. Multiple times the old journalist Eugenio Scalfari has admitted he doesn't take note of what Pope Francis says to him and that he writes down what he remembers many days after. He is an old free mason atheist who has used many times manipolation like this one to make the Pope says what he's never said. When you saw at first who told this fake story you shold have been much smarter and not jump on this hypehatetrain towards Pope.

    And he saids that Pope said Jesus was fully God before incarnation and again becomes ( fully) God after resurection. That is true. Pope doenst denie that Jesus is now fully God, this is very misleading from M. Voris and similar sites, Pope has always called Jesus true God he was maybe just refering at time of Christ ministry on earth when he wsnt fully God and that old freemason took it out of context to prove his point that Jesus wasnt a God ever, but it still failes cause he admits Pope told him Jesus was fully God before incarnation and after resurection.

    Please Steve, think twice, breath deeply, go easy on this, we can expect much more of this brining confusion in time that are coming. God bless you.

  5. Petar_Croatia

    Steve Ray: Petar, I am certainly not jumping on any bandwagon but I am observing what’s going on in the Vatican. We have serious problems with this pontificate and anybody who denies it is burying their head in the sand. You also need to check your theology. Jesus was not only God at the incarnation but also through his whole life and after his resurrection. There was never a time when he was not God. If the pope said that, we have serious problems. If he did not say it, and he needs to come out in public and straighten it out since the whole world is talking about it now.

    Petar: Hi Steve, thank you for your time to answer me.
    You said: “We have serious problems with this pontificate and anybody who denies it is burying their head in the sand.”
    Yes, that why I said i dont agree with everything this Pope say and does.

    “You also need to check your theology. Jesus was not only God at the incarnation but also through his whole life and after his resurrection. There was never a time when he was not God. ”
    I did check my theology and I check Phil 2,6. Jesus before incarnation, Jesus at earthly ministry and Jesus after resurection/ascension are not all the same. When he was on earth, he was also human, he was vonoruable, he wasnt Fully God in that context (phil 2,6) dont get me wrong please.

    Long story short, Pope never told that, contrary Pope always told Jesus was (on earth both-God and (hu)man, truth is Jesus is not the same when he as in Earth and before incarnatio and after resurection cause then he doesnt have human flesh etc-he is still a God-but not like he is before incarnation and after ascension) we dont have proofs except this old atheist free mason who is known about twisting everything Pope saids.

    Devil will try to divide us more and attack church more, this is perfect examplme, using old atehist free mason to brin confuison haterd and anger, Im just calling for better and more objective judgment, I agree with you that this Pope has some pretty weird stuff going on with him but lets not attack and use everything we can at him like this, this story, that Pope denied Christ divinity is one of the stupidest thing ever came out. (not from you, I know you are just passing the news)

    God bless.

  6. Petar_Croatia

    + " If he did not say it, and he needs to come out in public and straighten it out since the whole world is talking about it now."

    Vatican came yesterday out about this and denied this false accusations.

    STEVE RAY HERE: The Pope should come out and explain himself. The anemic and weak retraction from the Vatican was very inadequate. Let the pope come out and teach the truth since he’s the teacher of the faith.

  7. Petar_Croatia

    and once again just to make sure im not giving some heretical teology; Jesus was God on earth but also a human-wich he wasnt before incarnation and after ascencsion (phil 2,6). And Pope always told that Jesus was a God-when He was on earth ministry , before incarnation and after ascnesion, just check everything he ever said about Jesus.

    And then look who talks about this (ateist free mason known for twisting things) who tried to use Jesus human nature on earth to disaprove his divnity-something that Pope never said.


  8. Bill912

    Petar: The Holy Father keeps giving interviews to this guy, who then states that the Holy Father said some very strange things for the Vicar of Christ to say. Steve asks the Holy Father for clarity, as do I. Yet, he declines to clarify, and allows confusion to stand. There are three possibilities: he doesn’t understand that he is allowing confusion to stand; he doesn’t care; or he wants confusion to stand.

  9. Jim Lik

    Hi Steve, thanks for reply. Jim here. Yes, I read the article and I understand "the pope said that Jesus was not divine after he became man" as claimed by Scalfari.

    According to Aquinas, Prudence is a cardinal virtue and we should particularly be conscious of using this virtue specific to this issue.

    What I mean is , we know Scalfari is an atheist. An atheist believes that Jesus was only man and not divine. If he believes that when he heard the pope "confirm" it, then the proper thing a true atheist should be doing is yo say "yes!' to himself and he happy that the pope confirmed him to be correct. He should just go home and be happy because there is no issue to discuss/ report since all is well and correct.

    What he did was the exact opposite. He made an issue out of what he thought was true and correct and reported it hinting that what the pope said was false and incorrect. What he did was inconsistent to himself. If we use Prudence, it is evident that his actions was Self-refuting and reveals an agenda. It is not reporting honestly and being consistent with what he believes as true

    STEVE RAY HERE: I completely understand. The question still is though, if the pope did not say those things then he has an obligation to the people of God to step up to the microphone and say so and to give the true teaching of the church to clarify.

  10. Jim Lim

    As a lover of the papacy, I'm sure you put to heart the ancient adage:" Rome has spoken, the case is closed".
    In this case, the Vatican spokesman (appointed and given authority by the pope) has spoken. Scalfari has been refuted.

    Let's close the case.

    If we believe in the concept of authority, the above is good enough and more than enough.

    To demand that the pope himself comes out and defend what is not his words is not to trust and to in fact start questioning the very structure of the Church itself.

    What then is the role of the Vatican spokesman if we cannot believe his declaration?

    STEVE RAY HERE: You’re putting way more interpretation into the passage about Rome has spoken then it warrants. The Pope has said confusing things he needs to clarify them. If it was the first time then that’s one thing. But he continually does this and then leaves them unanswered. He causes confusion and frustration among the faithful. The statement by the Vatican was unconvincing and a bit ambiguous, unclear. The pope’s job is to clarify doctrine and to clear up confusion and division not cause it. The Pope needs to speak out and be clear about it.

  11. Johann du Toit

    His Holiness should kick Scalfari to the curb and stop giving him any further interviews. What kind of professional journalist (and with Scalfari I use the term loosely) does not keep notes of his interviews? As an attorney I always take notes of all the witnesses who testify in court to enable me to better examine them; to not take notes would be grossly negligent and unprofessional.

  12. Jim Lim

    I understand your points Steve. But if i follow your line of thought, what we are trying to do here is to declare the pope's interview with Scalfari as 'ex-cathedra' declaration of catholic truth and dogma/ doctrine. We all know this is not the case. Even, let's just say, by some stretch of imagination that the pope actually said and he firmly believed that Jesus is not divine, unless he says that in a solemn ex-cathedra manner, there is no issue.

    The pope is human and does err. But in his capacity as pope, he will never err ex-cathedra.

    So since there is no dispute that there is no ex-cathedra declaration here, the pope has nothing to disprove or to defend against. hope this makes sense.

    The pope is the primary teacher of the church. He hast to be careful what he says and no pope has ever said anything like what he has allegedly said. Don’t try to cover for him if he’s making a mistake. If he said what he said we’re in big trouble. If he did not say what he is alleged to have said then he needs to correct it.

    Just because he did not speak ex cathedra does not mean it’s not important. What he says is something that the whole faithful people of God listen to. He has to be careful and if he said the wrong thing or was misrepresented he needs to correct it. Period.

    This is not complicated. Even a simple-minded Catholic should understand this.

  13. Jim

    I think I really understand you and it is probably your love and zeal for the papacy that's ironically causing this attitude, please allow me try to add a few ideas to chew :
    Here's your point : If the pope said something ambiguous, he needs to explain/ clarify it.

    SR: Jim, thanks for your kind words and attempt to understand and explain. You have a good heart.

    This goes without saying. The pope is the teacher of the church and if someone says that he made a heretical statement, it is either true or not true. If the pope says it’s not true then he needs to step forward and make it very clear what he does believe. It’s a great teaching moment when he can reaffirm and clarify the church is constant teaching and who Jesus is. This is a no brainer.

    1. The subject of a statement claiming Jesus' Divinity is not ambiguous or complicated that needs explaining or clarification. It's either Jesus is Divine or he isn't. It's either black or white. It's binary. As such, it boils down to whether we believe the pope's spokeman who said it is white or we believe scalfari, who claims the pope said it is black.

    SR: It doesn’t matter who you believe or what was said. What matters is that the pop clarifies it and makes it very clear for the faithful people of God.

    2. Humans have natural biases in that often we read the way we want it interpreted. So perhaps you might be reading the pope in a negative way now. I'm sure it can change because you love the papacy.

    SR: I am not reading with any bias or preconceptions. I take the Pope for what he says at face value. It’s not as though he doesn’t have a track record of ambiguity and refusing to answer questions. I think his track record speaks for itself. One doesn’t have to be biased to have an objective view of the pope and the direction he wants to take the church based on what he says and what he does, who he appoints as Cardinals and who he refuses to talk to.
    I am not reading with any bias or preconceptions. I take the pope and what he says at face value. It’s not as though he doesn’t have a track record of ambiguity and refusing to answer questions.

    3. Let me share with you how I read him. This pope is unique because, like the spirit of st. Francis of assissi, he is not rigid on laws and precepts (less pharaisical approach) and he puts the good of the human person above the laws.

    SR: He is not at all like Saint Francis who would never have been “flexible” about the laws and tradition and teachings of the church. St. Francis did not have a “spirit” of an antinomian or one who regards laws in theology is not important in comparison to people. So let’s get that straight right now. There’s a big discontinuity between the two of them.

    I'm short, he uses the laws to serve the man, not the other way around.

    And so when he seemingly changes old rigid disciplines and precepts (not doctrine/dogma) of the Church, there is a tendency for us (and many learned theologians to see only the change but not the spirit underlying. Btw, one of the hazards of learned theologians is pride and the tendency to be pharaisical (because they know a lot) and rigid to the law.

    SR: It is very dangerous to have this idea that people are more important than laws. The very fact that we have laws shows how important people are. For example, traffic laws that control are driving. Should those laws be relaxed so that people have more freedom in their driving? If we do, will have accidents at every intersection and people will be hurt because we try to make laws go away so that people are more important. I’m not sure who the Pharisees are in this situation.

    So in summary, i read the pope as relaxed on laws because the laws are there to serve man, not the other way around. The human person comes first.

    Let's try to read/ see the good in him.

    SR: again I say, that laws and the traditions of the church are there precisely because people are important. Take away the laws and you lose the importance of people and their safety and their salvation.

    I think there is a “liberal and progressive“ spirit in the church today that’s the same as the Democratic Party in our country that’s trying to change and undercut all the foundational principles of the United States. I see a parallel here and I don’t like what I see.

    If there’s any typos, please disregard since I’m dictating this on the fly on the sea of Galilee.

  14. sandi

    I agree with you entirely, Steve. I also agree with Archbishop Vigano who is calling for the Pope to personally clarify what he does or doesn’t believe about the Divinity of Jesus Christ while he was on earth. If he doesn’t believe in Christ’s divinity while he was a man, it is a total game changer for the faithful of the Catholic Church. We would be dealing with a heretic pope.

  15. Dennis

    Why dosent he publicly admit he hasn't said these things about our Lords divinity his resurrection, because this is what he said per said.

    STEVE RAY HERE: I agree. If I interviewed with someone today who tomorrow claims I denied the divinity of Christ, I would immediately respond and reaffirm Jesus’s divinity in the clearest of terms. Why he does not is a mystery to me, unless he wants to be ambivalent and ambiguous.

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