I compiled a list of Catechism, Scripture and quotes from the early Church Fathers and even archaeology to assist in understanding the Communion of Saints.
You can download the source material here.
Sample:
Who should carry the most weight—Protestant pastors protesting Catholic theology today or pastors from the early Church who have the words of the Apostles still ringing in their ears?
From earliest times Christians went to the gravesites of saints and asked them to pray for them. This picture shows graffiti from the Catacombs of St. Sebastian in Rome with inscriptions in Hebrew, Greek and Latin imploring the prayers of Peter and Paul. “Petrus and Paulus, pray for us!” “Peter and Paul, pray for victory.”
St. Cyril
In 350 A.D., St. Cyril wrote a remarkable and exquisitely detailed description of the Mass, which clearly corresponds with today’s Mass. In it we find this beautiful statement on the family of God which we all belong to, and which even today we pray for in every Mass:
“Upon completion of the spiritual Sacrifice, the bloodless worship, over that propitiatory victim, we call upon God for the common peace of the Churches, for the welfare of the world, for kings, for soldiers and allies, for the sick, for the afflicted, and in summary, we all pray and offer this Sacrifice for all who are in need.
“Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep; for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn Sacrifice is laid out.” (The Faith of the Early Fathers,’ Vol. 1, William A. Jurgens, [Collegeville, Minnesota: Liturgical Press, 1970] p. 363.).
The faithful in heaven and on earth are united in the Mystical Body of Christ through the Person of Jesus. This is the meaning of the Communion of Saints.
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Excellent!
My favourite Bible verse to use in defending our prayers to the Saints is this one:
Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Granted, it is the prayer of a dead person to another. But it illustrates several truths which are the basis of our prayers to the Saints.
1st. Those who have died physically remain alive spiritually.
2nd. They are aware of themselves and of the things occurring on earth. In their exchange, Father Abraham and Dives (i.e. the Rich Man) show that they are cognizant of things that are happening on earth.
3rd. The authority of the Saints is recognized.
a. Dives calls Abraham “father”. And assumes that Abraham has the authority to send Lazarus here and there.
b. Abraham, on his part, does not say, “wait, let me consult with God.” He makes decisions readily. And behaves with authority.
4th. Abraham and Lazarus are pictured together. They have a personal relationship because Lazarus is resting on Abraham’s bosom.
5th. Here is the difficult part. Dives, who is not a Saint, but a resident of a place which is not remotely associated with heaven, is INTERCEDING for his brothers. ???!!! If, a person in the after life, who is not a Saint, is interceding for his brothers in this life, WHY CAN’T THE SAINTS WHO HAVE DIED IN CHRIST?
There are other verses which I use but I didn’t see you mention. For instance:
Matthew 10:40-42
King James Version (KJV)
40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
In the name of a prophet, a righteous man, or a disciple? What? Aren’t we only supposed to pray in the name of Christ?
And, Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
If we are in the Church, we are already walking with the Saints in heaven. Why can’t we turn to them, then and ask for their intercession?
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria, I never noticed or considered that passage in Luke about one person praying to the dead. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!
St. Cyril’s speech is interesting but most Protestants I know would ignore it.
CELESTINO’S COMMENTS HERE; STEVE RAY’S COMMENTS BELOW:
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
The above quoted scriptures are crystal clear, is it “difficult” to approach the throne of grace directly? If we claim our Church is the one true Church Christ established – why don’t we be obedient to His directives?
I see people who go via the saints or hide under the “dress” of his mother are sissies and are afraid to approach the throne of grace directly. And it is because they really do not “love” Jesus but are merely paying Him a lip-service. It tantamount’s to the denial and insult to His sovereign deity.
John 14:6 says it perfectly. So why waste time approaching third persons like the saints? Will he answer our prayers much quicker via the saints? Would he take much longer if we approach Him directly?
We have to remember that Jesus is God. – the Creator and we are His creations – and that too mortal creations. Christianity worships the Creator and not the creations. Saints like the rest of us are created beings. If we worship the creations, we become like the Hindus in India who worship 200+ fake gods.
God Bless.
STEVE RAY HERE. Celestino, I would suggest you leave the soundbites behind and find out what the Catholic Church actually teaches so you don’t base your conclusions and comments solely on the anti-Catholic rhetoric you’ve been fed.
First, Catholic don’t worship Mary or the saints. Period. For Protestants, “pray” and “worship” tend to be synonymous. For Catholics we have a respect for language and realize these two words describe two very different things. Prayer is simply to ask; worship is to adore and that is only offered to the Trinity.
Second, if you only go to Jesus, then why do you ask others to pray for you? If you pray (ask) someone else to go to God for you in prayer, you have just made them a mediator. You have asked them to pray for you. That is all that Catholics do with Mary and the saints.
Where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints? Where does the Bible say saints are dead. We believe they are very alive and in God’s presence. We ask them to pray for us the same way we ask people at church to pray for us.
No one is afraid to approach the throne of grace. That has been opened for us through the work of Christ and by the ministry of the Holy Spirit. I would suggest you not hide under the skirts of your leaders who are misleading and deceiving you about the church that Jesus founded 2,000 years ago.
Steve,
Thanks for the comments. My post is not anti-Catholic, but only what the scriptures say. I will reply to some of your comments in bold.
CELESTINO: MY COMMENTS IN CAPS AND ITALICS AND WILL BE VERY FEW. OF COURSE YOUR COMMENTS ARE ANTI-CATHOLIC. IT IS THE SAME OLD, SAME OLD ANTI-CATHOLIC RHETORIC I USED TO ESPOUSE WHEN I WAS AN ANTI-CATHOLIC. YOU ARE NOT TAKING ONLY “WHAT THE SCRIPTURES SAY” BUT MAINLY WHAT YOUR TRADITION SAYS AND YOUR OWN PRIVATE INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE MIXED WITH VARIOUS PROTESTANTS BREWS.
First, Catholic don’t worship Mary or the saints. Period. For Protestants, “pray” and “worship” tend to be synonymous.
The prayers that are said to Mary and the saints are sufficient evidence. E.g. a prayer that addresses Mary as the gate of heaven, refuge of sinners. the morning star -titles that should not be attributed to her – a created mortal being. Bowing before, praying to, going on bended knee and garlanding flowers is “worship”.
SORRY. THIS IS SIMPLY YOUR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE. PRAYER MEANS TO ASK NOT TO WORSHIP. LIKE I SAID, PROTESTANTS MIX THE TWO. WHEN I ASK SOMEONE TO PRAY FOR ME, I AM PRAYING FOR THEM TO PRAY FOR ME. IN ENGLISH (ESPECIALLY IN BRITAIN AND OLD ENGLISH) ONE WOULD SAY, “I PRAY THE COURT…” THIS CERTAINLY DOES NOT IMPLY A DIVINE WORSHIP OF THE COURT. IF YOU MET THE QUEEN OF ENGLAND YOU WOULD BOW TO HER. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LOVE, HONOR, VENERATION AND WORSHIP.
THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS ALWAYS DENOUNCE WORSHIP OF ANYTHING OR ANYONE OTHER THAN GOD. MANY PEOPLE EXPRESS THEIR LOVE AND VENERATION IN WAYS THAT MIGHT UPSET YOU AND YOUR RESTRICTIONS, BUT NO CATHOLIC WOULD EVER THINK OF WORSHIPING A CREATURE, WHICH IS WHAT MARY IS. ON THE OTHER HAND, SHE HOLDS A VERY SPECIAL PLACE IN SALVATION HISTORY AND UNDER THE INSPIRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT SAID ALL PEOPLES WILL CALL HER BLESSED. SHE IS THE ARK OF THE NEW COVENANT, THE NEW JERUSALEM, THE DAUGHTER OF ZION, THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN. ALL THINGS YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND FROM READING SCRIPTURE DEEPLY, NOT SHALLOWLY AND OVER LITERALLY LIKE MOST PROTESTANTS DO.
It is not true that you are simply asking Mary to pray for you. You go much, much further than that. Would you not agree that Catholics believe the following?
a.) All graces God gives to human beings pass through the hands of Mary; no creature has received any grace from God except through the hands of Mary.
b.) Those souls will fall and be lost who do not have recourse to Mary.
c.) The Lord wants us to place our hope for salvation and for every blessing in Mary.
d.) When we pray to the Mother of God we are heard more quickly than when we call directly on the name of Jesus.
e.) Mary is the most faithful mediatrix of our salvation; she has been made the ladder to paradise, the gate of heaven, the most true mediatrix between God and human beings.
e.) In the name of Mary every knee should bend, of things in heaven, on earth and under the earth. Mary saves all who have recourse to her.
f.) Mary is the door through which sinners come to God.
MANY EXAGGERATIONS AND OUT OF CONTEXT QUOTES HERE WHICH ARE NOT WORTH MY TIME TO DISSECT. THEY DEMONSTRATE THE PROTESTANT BIAS AGAINST MARY AND THE ATTEMPT TO PUT CATHOLIC VENERATION IN THE WORST POSSIBLE LIGHT.
Now, please read below the quotation from a little prayer the title is “The Glories of Mary” and the author is St Alphonsus Liguori. He says:
AGAIN FLOWERY LANGUAGE BUT THE QUEEN USUALLY DOES HAVE PEOPLE KNEEL TO HER. THIS DOES NOT IMPLY DIVINITY BUT HONOR AS A QUEEN WOULD EXPECT. JESUS IS THE KING AND IN ISRAEL THE KINGS HAD QUEENS AND THE QUEENS WERE NOT THEIR WIVES–BUT THEIR MOTHERS. JESUS WOULD DO WHAT THE KINGS OF ISRAEL DO. WHAT DO THE KINGS OF ISRAEL DO? MAKE THEIR MOTHERS THEIR QUEENS. NO SURPRISE HERE ESPECIALLY WHEN WE SEE MARY AS QUEEN WITH STARS FOR A CROWN, A THE MOON UNDER HER FEET AND CLOTHED WITH THE SUN.
SHAME OF ST. JOHN FOR BETRAYING MARY IN SUCH AN EXALTED POSITION. SHAME, SHAME! 🙂
That is what the Catholic church teaches. And by your own admission, you are being called to worship a creature, which is idolatry. I hope and pray that you will repent of this sin, and turn wholeheartedly to the Lord.
YOU LOSE ALL YOUR CREDIBILITY WITH THAT LAST LINE. YOU ARE FOOLISH AND IGNORANT OF WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES. YOU MIGHT WANT TO READ THE CATECHISM WHICH SAYS TO CLEAR UP YOUR CONFUSION.
Where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints? Where does the Bible say saints are dead. We believe they are very alive and in God’s presence.
Yes, agreed the saints and Mary are in God’s presence. But their are mortal created beings, besides they are not omniscience nor omnipresent to be able to hear prayers. So we cannot be sure without “proof” that they can hear prayers. Only God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Ghost are omniscience and omnipresent.
BY THE WAY, YOU SPELLED “OMNISCIENT” WRONG. WE KNOW THEY ARE MORTAL! WE KNOW THEY ARE NOT OMNISCIENT! OF COURSE ONLY GOD IS. COME ON. YOU ARE MAKING A STRAW MAN AND THEN PUFFING OUT YOUR CHEST AS THOUGH YOU MADE A POINT. YOU HAVEN’T. CATHOLICS HAVE NEVER THOUGHT MARY OR THE SAINTS ARE OMNIPRESENT OR OMNISCIENT. BUT THE ANGELS BRING TO THE HEAVEN THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS. DO YOU FULLY UNDERSTAND “SPIRITUAL TECHNOLOGY”? NEITHER DO I. BUT I TRUST THE CHURCH THAT JESUS FOUNDED AND THE BIBLE HE GAVE AND KNOW THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS I CANNOT EXPLAIN BUT KNOW THEY ARE TRUE.
Second, if you only go to Jesus, then why do you ask others to pray for you? If you pray (ask) someone else to go to God for you in prayer, you have just made them a mediator
Asking someone else to pray on your behalf who is “alive” on this earth is okay as along as I tell them to pray for my needs in Jesus name. That is what Jesus commanded us to do when he said where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst. Jesus also taught His apostle’s how o pray – very clearly. When our alive earthly intercessor passes away, then are in sleep until the day they will be given glorified bodies. They are not conscious of the happenings on earth, Luke 16:24 proves this.
SO, PRAYING TO SOMEONE ON THE EARTH IS OK? PRAY MEANS TO ASK. MOSES DIED AND WAS BURIED AND 1,500 YEARS LATER MET JESUS ON THE MOUNT OF TRANSFIGURATION AND TALKED TO JESUS ABOUT CURRENT EVENTS. IT WAS CLEAR ENOUGH THAT EVEN THE DISCIPLES RECOGNIZED HIM AND ELIJAH. SO MUCH FOR THE “DEAD AND GONE” NOT BEING AWARE.
YOU HAVE A LOT TO LEARN MY FRIEND. KEEP SEEKING THE TRUTH. THIS IS THE FINAL CORRESPONDENCE FROM ME. IT HAS TAKEN UP WAY TOO MUCH OF MY TIME.
Christianity is neither Pantheistic nor Panatheistic. Besides, Salvation is found by faith in Christ Jesus alone.
I have a number of Catholic friends, as well as I am a witness to the same when a Catholic priest exhorted at the Catechism classes, the following statement:
—- “Don’t pray to Jesus, He is a wrathful God. Pray to Mary, she will soften His heart”. Can this be true according to scriptures. There are so many recorded interview of Catholic priests who have literaaly denied Jesus on the Larry King Live show on CNN.
I am writing the above not to offend anyone’s sentiments, But to seek the truth. I honor Mary, the Apostles, the saints, but I will not seek their intercession because they are not God, besides the important things : “IT WAS ONLY JESUS WHO DIED TO TAKE AWAY MY SINS”. No one else could do so.
YOU LOSE ALL YOUR CREDIBILITY WITH THAT LAST LINE. YOU ARE FOOLISH AND IGNORANT OF WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES. YOU MIGHT WANT TO READ THE CATECHISM WHICH SAYS TO CLEAR UP YOUR CONFUSION.
I going through the CCC and at para #460 it says – “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God“.
This teaching is a hall mark of all cult religions. When I show my Catholic friends about it, they mumble in disbelief.
You will have to get to hands properly wet to assimilate the CCC against what the divine scriptures say.
Good luck..
STEVE RAY HERE: AGAIN CELESTINO. YOUR IGNORANCE OF THEOLOGY, THE BIBLE AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY IS APPARENT IN THIS LAST POST – AND THIS “IS’ MY LAST RESPONSE. BUT YOU JUST MAKE IT SO EASY AND FUN TO RESPOND TO THAT I FIND MYSELF RESPONDING.
PETER SAYS IN 2 PETER 1:4 THAT WILL BECOME SHARERS IN THE DIVINE NATURE, BE LIKE GOD SHARING HIS VERY NATURE. SHAME OF PETER FOR SAYING WE WILL HAVE DIVINE NATURES! ONE LIKE YOU PICK THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT AND HUFF AND PUFF WITHOUT TAKING DOING THE HARD WORK OF LOOKING UP THE REFERENCES THE CATECHISM USES, RESEARCHING THE PAST, AND GOING BEYOND YOUR SIMPLISTIC BIBLE-ONLY, CELESTINE-ONLY, FUNDAMENTALIST TRADITION.
HERE IS A LITTLE HELP WITH THIS MATTER, THOUGH MUCH MORE COULD BE SAID.
About paragraph 460. No one is teaching what the Mormons teach, that we become our own gods with our own universes. That is heresy. What the Church is saying here is very different.?One must read carefully, in context, and with the whole teaching of Scripture and the Church. This is a direct quote from St. Athansius, Doctor of the Church and Father of Orthodoxy. I would recommend reading his comment in its full context. The second quote is from St. Thomas Aquinas.?Paragraph 260 starts with the scriptural promise that we will be “partakers of the divine nature” which certainly implies that we will be brought into glory and drawn up into the very nature of God himself.?If the word “god” was in small letters it would be a problem since it would imply were would be individual “gods”. However, with the capital “G” God it implies we will be incorporated into his nature. We will become so close that we will be one with him, thus God in that unique sense. When a man and woman marry they become one flesh. When we are incorporated into the divine life of the Trinity we become one with him in a similar way.?Context of St. Athanasius’ words (by the way, when in Logos at Paragraph 460, just click the hyperlink footnote and it will take you directly to this quote in the Fathers): 2. And if they be human, let him scoff; but if they are not human, but of God, let him recognise it, and not laugh at what is no matter for scoffing; but rather let him marvel that by so ordinary a means things divine have been manifested to us, and that by death immortality has reached to all, and that by the Word becoming man, the universal Providence has been known, and its Giver and Artificer the very Word of God. 3. For He was made man that we might be made God; and He manifested Himself by a body that we might receive the idea of the unseen Father; and He endured the insolence of men that we might inherit immortality. For while He Himself was in no way injured, being impassible and incorruptible and very Word and God, men who were suffering, and for whose sakes He endured all this, He maintained and preserved in His own impassibility. 4. And, in a word, the achievements of the Saviour, resulting from His becoming man, are of such kind and number, that if one should wish to enumerate them, he may be compared to men who gaze at the expanse of the sea and wish to count its waves. For as one cannot take in the whole of the waves with his eyes, for those which are coming on baffle the sense of him that attempts it; so for him that would take in all the achievements of Christ in the body, it is impossible to take in the whole, even by reckoning them up, as those which go beyond his thought are more than those he thinks he has taken in. 5. Better is it, then, not to aim at speaking of the whole, where one cannot do justice even to a part, but, after mentioning one more, to leave the whole for you to marvel at. For all alike are marvellous, and wherever a man turns his glance, he may behold on that side the divinity of the Word, and be struck with exceeding great awe.?A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, Second Series, Volume IV: St. Athanasius: Select Works and Letters. 1892 (P. Schaff & H. Wace, Ed.) (65–66). New York: Christian Literature Company.
Dear Steve,
In 2 Peter 1:4
(a.) Douay Rheims Catholic bible says “partakers“.
(b.) King James 1611 – the best translation hands down, says “partakers
I see only on the NABRE says :sharers (see http://www.usccb.org/bible/2peter/1)
So if we take both Catholic Bibles, Douay and NABRE together, which one should we “boot” out :))
God Bless and nice interacting with you.
STEVE RAY HERE: SORRY MY FRIEND. YOU GET THE “GONG” AGAIN. TAKING THE ENGLISH WORD FROM SEVERAL TRANSLATIONS AND MAKING AN ARBITRARY CHOICE OF WORDS YOU LIKE BEST WITHOUT ANY UNDERSTANDING OF THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGES OF THE BIBLE OR THE HISTORICAL USE OF A WORD DURING THE CONTEXT OF ITS WRITING IS DANGEROUS. THERE IS A SAYING, “A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS MORE DANGEROUS THEN NONE.” THIS IS WHY IT IS SAFE TO TRUST THE 2,000 YEAR HISTORY AND WISDOM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND NOT FLY OFF AND BELIEVE EVERYTHING EVERY LITTLE THEOLOGICAN-WANT-TO-BE COMES UP WITH 🙂
LET THE 3-VOLUME PROTESTANT THEOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT HELP YOU A BIT. “The next sense is that of sharing in a nature which has been received or which is to be attained. Thus in Heb. 2:14 children share in the common mortality of man. Since Christ acquired a share herein, He entered into a full fellowship of flesh and blood in order that He might vanquish death thereby. In 2 PEt. 1:4 redemption is presented along these lines as a liberation from the natural corruption of earth to participation in the divine nature. (FOOTNOTE 1) IN OTHER WORDS GOD TOOK ON HUMAN FLESH SO MAN COULD LIKEWISE SHARE IN THE DIVINE NATURE.
Theological dictionary of the New Testament. 1964- (G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley & G. Friedrich, Ed.) (electronic ed.). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
ALSO FOR YOUR EDIFICATION:
2 Peter 1:4
King James Version
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Douay-Rheims Bible
By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.
English Standard Version
by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.
The New International Version
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
Amplified Bible
By means of these He has bestowed on us His precious and exceedingly great promises, so that through them you may escape [by flight] from the moral decay (rottenness and corruption) that is in the world because of covetousness (lust and greed), and become sharers (partakers) of the divine nature.
New American Standard Bible
For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
The Revised Standard Version
by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.
The New American Bible
Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire.
a.) All graces God gives to human beings pass through the hands of Mary; no creature has received any grace from God except through the hands of Mary.
All grace came by Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ came by Mary.
b.) Those souls will fall and be lost who do not have recourse to Mary.
This is a truth and a great mystery. An inkling of it is revealed in Rev 12:17. Here, those who battle the Dragon are depicted as the “seed of the Woman (i.e. Mary). They are also described as those who have the Testimony of Jesus and the Commandments of God.
The seed of Mary have in their mouths the Testimony of Jesus and the Commandments of God. That sounds as though, those who have recourse to Mary are the Elect. I believe St. Louis de Montfort explained this mystery best. Christ is born by the action of the Holy Spirit in every one who loves Mary.
c.) The Lord wants us to place our hope for salvation and for every blessing in Mary.
See response to b.
d.) When we pray to the Mother of God we are heard more quickly than when we call directly on the name of Jesus.
See the book of Job for an example of God receiving the prayers of those He hold especially dear (Job 42:8). See also Numbers 12, about how Aaron and Miriam turned on Moses and God rebuked them. Also James 5:16-18, where St. James shows that God listens to just men, like Elijah.
Suffice to say that God loves and listens to the prayers of those who are meek and holy in His sight.
e.) Mary is the most faithful mediatrix of our salvation; she has been made the ladder to paradise, the gate of heaven, the most true mediatrix between God and human beings.
See response to b above.
e.) In the name of Mary every knee should bend, of things in heaven, on earth and under the earth. Mary saves all who have recourse to her.
In the Gospel of John, Jesus revealed that Mary is the mother of the Disciple whom He loves. We, Catholics are taught that WE are the Disciples whom Jesus loves. And we therefore take Mary in our hearts as out mother, in the name of Jesus. Now, the Scriptures also say that we must “honor our father and mother”. Therefore, we bow to and kneel before our Holy Mother. John 19:27; Exodus 20:12
Rev 12:1 reveals that Mary has been crowned Queen of Heaven. Therefore we bow to and kneel before Mary as we would before a Queen.
f.) Mary is the door through which sinners come to God.
That is why Scripture calls us the “Seed of the Woman”. Rev 12:17
God is absolute. It was God’s will that God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, come to sinners through Mary. Scripture reveals that in order to come to God, we must become the Seed of Mary.
Sincerely,
De Maria
As for being like God. Does Scripture not also say:
1 John 3:2
King James Version (KJV)
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
De Maria:
we shall be like him doesn’t imply we will be carbon copies of God. It simply means those who only abide in the Word of God after being made the sons of God (John 1:12) will possess certain attributes that are of God. Like glorified bodies, absolute and perfect holiness. etc.
De Maria:
All grace came by Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ came by Mary.
So then also the Gospel of Jesus Christ also came via the 12 Apostles who laid down their lives courageously. Through instructions from Jesus they went to the uttermost parts of the earth. Which means also we received the conveying grace through them.
Hi Thomas, I appreciate your desire for truth and I would like to advice a little.
No one has a monopoly of the spirit and that is why we all need to approach scripture with humilty and a deaire to learn ones positipn first, tje objectively critsize. It appears to me though that you are basing your intetpretations of scripture only on what you think. Otherwise, how would you make the fact that we share in God’s nature an issue? Ask your pastors if this is an issue.
I would like to refer you to salvatiohistory.com, there you will ne amazed at how all that Steve has said is easiely true. I am a catholic and just like many catholics, it is non catholics that claim to know what we do more than we ourselves. Pls refer those your catholic friends to the website I gave you. Search for any topic uou want but be fair ro yourself, be humble and open afterall, the founder of the site was an evangelical theologian who abhored the catholic church a lot. But he was open to truth and he found it.
As regards Mary, God exalted her even if some people don’t recorgnize this out ot pride. Elizabeth felt honored that the “Mother of my God” should come to me. Lk 1, 43. It all started in Genesis when God declared war between the first Eve(woman) amd her children on one hand and the devil on the other. This woman will experience pain in child birth, this regers to both the spiritual and the physical. And when Simeon saw the child Jesus and his mother, he said this was the saviour but he did not forget Genesis, he said a sword will pierce through your own soul for..Lk 2, 35. Certainly you would agree that the salvation of many had nothing to do with Mary nearing earthly children. When Jesus was crucified, he told John this is your mother and he said to the woman, to the Eve this is your son. Fast foward to Rev 12 where again the Woman appears. And how do we know it is the same woman? Well, first he is called Woman, then he brings forth children in pain, the devil was on the attack, and she was protcted bu God, and she bears a son who was taken ip to God and to his throne which means Jesus, and again the devil having failed to kill Jesus wages war( remember the war of Gen 3) against the rest of her children.
Now, this woman is clothed like a queen so she sjould be a queen, infact she must be a queen if her son is Jesus christ who now sits on the throne of David, for the Davidic kings had queen mothers, 1Kings 2, 19, 1Kings 15, 13.
So you now understand Elizabeth’s reaction, and Mary’s utterance in Luke 2. Lets face it, we bow to earthly queens, why not heavenly ones? We ask earthly pastors to pray for us, why not heavenly ones?
Let me ask you something:
How come we belive in the bible when the apostles did not use one as we have it today, how sure are you that these books are inspired? Have you ever researched Martin Luther’s teaching to see his stand on spiritual truths? Have you wondered why in a matter of months after the reformation different churches with different teachings came up! Have you wondered how the spirit of God can be in all these churches teaching different things? Have you ever wondered why most non catholics resent church history?
I enjoy Steve but iy seems you dony like his style so please check out salvatipnhistory.com and find truth.
celestino thomas
we shall be like him doesn’t imply we will be carbon copies of God.
Did I say we would be carbon copies of God? If I didn’t say it, why do you pretend that I did. I simply reiterated what Scripture says. And you have confirmed that it does say what I quoted.
It simply means those who only abide in the Word of God after being made the sons of God (John 1:12) will possess certain attributes that are of God. Like glorified bodies, absolute and perfect holiness. etc.
And life:
John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And that means that they will be aware of us here on earth.
Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: andby it he being dead yet speaketh.
So then also the Gospel of Jesus Christ also came via the 12 Apostles who laid down their lives courageously. Through instructions from Jesus they went to the uttermost parts of the earth. Which means also we received the conveying grace through them.
But if Jesus had not first come through Mary, there would be no Jesus and no Apostles.
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria:
But if Jesus had not first come through Mary, there would be no Jesus and no Apostles.
You are truly a spokesman for God. You mean to say the God’s sovereign salvation plan would come to a “screeching” halt if Mary refused?? PLEASE Don’t paint the role of Mary as some gigantic effort on her part when she simply submitted to the will of God with all humility. You are just simply trying to make a mountain of out a mole hill. 🙂
De Maria:
But if Jesus had not first come through Mary, there would be no Jesus and no Apostles.
Also keep in mind that God is not a “respecter” of persons mortal created beings) Acts 10:34. So need of all that bravado stuff.
Though i tend to disagree that God`s salvation would have not occurred were it not for Mary..because God is all-knowing then it means He had prepared Mary very well(to be full of grace -without original sin) from all eternity to participate in the salvation plan..this means the BVM would not have possibly said No to God`s Will…but then we need to agree and appreciate that Mary did pray a great role in the salvation plan BUT not because of Her own merit but because God willed it so…so then because God has willed it that is why we give the Honors she deserves i.e glorify God because of that
I have been raised a “Roman” Catholic. I have memorized the The Commandments and learned to lead the Rosary even before I was 6 years old. I learned Novena when I was in sixth Grade. My mother and I performed the devotion of Mary every Wednesday and also do Station of the Cross on the last Friday of each month. I have 2 uncles who are priests and worked at the Church every free time I have. I also stop by in the Prayer room to pray the Rosary every Friday of the week during High School. But I was born again and became a “born-again” Christian after experiencing the love of Jesus personally when I was in college. But I still have one question that even my priest uncles haven’t given me a convincing answer. Question: Why does the second commandment “thou shall not make any graven images..” in the Bible is omitted in the Catholic teaching and then divide the 10th into two parts. Most answers I get is that this is not the second, this is part of the 1st. But its very clear the first and this 2nd have a different subject. When Catholic says its the same (even if its not), how were the able divide 9th and 10th and say its different when both contain the key phrase “Thou shall not covet…”? which means the same. I checked this with my parents Catholic Bibles (1 is very old twice the size of an Encyclopedia and has sketches/drawings on it) and the 10 commandments are properly indented and the 2nd is “Thou shall not make any graven images…” and the “Thou shall not covet….” is only one indent. This is also the same in my Christian Bible (w/o Deuterocanonicals). So why is this?
Amos Omwenga
so then because God has willed it that is why we give the Honors she deserves i.e glorify God because of that.
I second that. Yes we have to honour Mary, the Saints all who glorify and submit to the will of God. But cannot elevate them to God status, because in the Body of Christ, God is not a “respecter” of persons Acts 10:34.
seven:
You make interesting observations. See my take below:
(i) Catholic Church is self-ordained Representative of God on earth, so they can do as they please even by making God a liar.
(ii) They want show they gave us the Bible, even to the extent of stealing others literary works. And to show the Catechism is much superior than the Bible.
(iii) Catholicism along the years embarrassed converts and along with them came their custom traditions (statues/graven images). So how to accommodate them? Well they simply on the quite, modify God’s Holy Word to accommodate the pagans, despite warnings of Revelations 22:18 .
Hi Joel,
You are truly a spokesman for God.
Thank you. I do my best. (1 Corinthians 4:3).
You mean to say the God’s sovereign salvation plan would come to a “screeching” halt if Mary refused??
Precisely. If Mary had said, “No.” God would not have gone shopping around for another woman to be mother to His Son.
PLEASE Don’t paint the role of Mary as some gigantic effort on her part when she simply submitted to the will of God with all humility.
It takes quite an effort to be humble. It does for me, anyway.
You are just simply trying to make a mountain of out a mole hill. 🙂
Tell me, since you seem to know, if Mary had said, “No.” Whom did God have lined up?
Sincerely,
De Maria
Hi seven,
I have been raised a “Roman” Catholic. I have memorized the The Commandments and learned to lead the Rosary even before I was 6 years old. I learned Novena when I was in sixth Grade. My mother and I performed the devotion of Mary every Wednesday and also do Station of the Cross on the last Friday of each month. I have 2 uncles who are priests and worked at the Church every free time I have. I also stop by in the Prayer room to pray the Rosary every Friday of the week during High School. But I was born again and became a “born-again” Christian after experiencing the love of Jesus personally when I was in college. But I still have one question that even my priest uncles haven’t given me a convincing answer.
I fell away from the Church to atheism when I was around 13 years old. It took about 15 years for me to be open to hearing the truth from the Catholic Church. Scripture tells us plainly:
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
If you fell away from the Catholic Church as a result of being “born again”, you weren’t born again in the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God does not lead anyone away from the Church of Jesus Christ (1 Tim 3:15; Eph 3:10).
When you are ready to listen to the truth, the Catholic answers will make sense to you.
Question: Why does the second commandment “thou shall not make any graven images..” in the Bible is omitted in the Catholic teaching
Answer: It isn’t. It is right there. Perhaps you missed it:
CCC article 1:
ARTICLE 1
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.
and then divide the 10th into two parts.
You are confused because Protestants took the Jewish division rather than the Christian division. You would think that the Jews had divided the Commandments into 10 statements before the Christians. But, you would be wrong. The first person to enumerate the Commandments was St. Augustine in the 3rd Century. That is the division we have today in the Christian Church.
The Jews, in rebellion to Christ, made a different enumeration. The Protestants, in rebellion of God’s Church, took the Jewish division as their own.
The Catholic Church has the first and most logical enumeration of the Ten Commandments.
Most answers I get is that this is not the second, this is part of the 1st.
That is true.
But its very clear the first and this 2nd have a different subject.
You want the second to be about condemning all graven images for any reason because you follow the errors of the Protestants. However, St. Augustine knew that God had commanded the Jews to make graven images of Cherubim (Exodus 25:18) and a bronze serpent (Numbers 21:9). And therefore, that enumeration which you prefer forces the Word of God to contradict itself.
When Catholic says its the same (even if its not), how were the able divide 9th and 10th and say its different when both contain the key phrase “Thou shall not covet…”? which means the same. I checked this with my parents Catholic Bibles (1 is very old twice the size of an Encyclopedia and has sketches/drawings on it) and the 10 commandments are properly indented and the 2nd is “Thou shall not make any graven images…” and the “Thou shall not covet….” is only one indent. This is also the same in my Christian Bible (w/o Deuterocanonicals). So why is this?
If you read the 9 and 10th Commandments, you will find that there are several things which one should not covet. The Protestant division equates a wife and a man’s house and other possessions. As though women were objects.
The Catholic division takes into account that wives “are one flesh” with their husbands (Genesis 2:24). Therefore, coveting a wife is on a different order than coveting a non-human object. Therefore, the Augustinian enumeration of the Commandments is far superior to the Jewish and Protestant version.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Joel,
I second that. Yes we have to honour Mary, the Saints all who glorify and submit to the will of God.
When and how do you ever honor Mary and the Saints? The Catholic Church does so in prayers and feasts. When and how do you ever honor God’s elect?
But cannot elevate them to God status, because in the Body of Christ, God is not a “respecter” of persons Acts 10:34.
That is true. God is not a respecter of persons. But how do you and the Protestants get that phrase so confounded? It doesn’t mean that God does not reward the faithful (Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 3:10-15). It doesn’t mean that God doesn’t listen to Righteous People (James 5:15-20). It doesn’t mean that God does not distinguish between the Righteous and the Sinners (Matt 25:31-45).
Note how God listened to Job, but not to Job’s friends (Job 42:8).
Note how God explicitly told Aaron and Miriam that He loved Moses more than they (Numbers 12:1-9).
So what does it mean, God is no respecter of persons? It means that God does not look at appearances. God does not save a Jew because he is circumcised nor a rich man because he is rich. God saves only those who obey Him and keep His Commandments (Romans 2:1-13).
And Jesus, God, loves Mary with a love which can not be measured or understood by any man or any woman. He is her Son, conceived in Her womb by the power of the Holy Spirit. No man can honestly expect God to love him more than God loves the Mother of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Hi Joel,
You said to seven:
You make interesting observations. See my take below:
(i) Catholic Church is self-ordained Representative of God on earth, so they can do as they please even by making God a liar.
1. It is you and the Protestants which are self ordained. God has not appointed you to speak on His behalf. In fact, the Protestant revolution is prophecies by St. Paul (2 Timothy 4:3).
make God a liar.
Again, you have provided no substantiation for your doctrines from Scripture. Therefore, they are false doctrines. Yet you claim they are taught by God and thus call God a liar.
(ii) They want show they gave us the Bible,
The Catholic Church wrote the New Testament and canonized the Old and the New in the Bible. True.
even to the extent of stealing others literary works.
No idea what that means. Unless you are referring to the fact that the Protestants took 7 books out of the Old Testament.
And to show the Catechism is much superior than the Bible.
No one ever said that. In fact, the Catholic Church teaches that the Bible is the Word of God and inerrant. Whereas the same claims are not made of the Catechism.
(iii) Catholicism along the years embarrassed converts and along with them came their custom traditions (statues/graven images). So how to accommodate them? Well they simply on the quite, modify God’s Holy Word to accommodate the pagans, despite warnings of Revelations 22:18 .
It is the Protestants which have added to and taken from the Word of God. And it is the Protestants which must pay for that crime before God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Dear Joel,
Thank you for your reply. All those things you have mentioned also crosses my mind.
Dear De Maria,
Thank you for your detailed reply, you were able to reply to each of my questions.
—First Point, 1 Cor 2:14, it mentioned ..”some people do not accept it and they don’t understand it.” But I have embraced it, live to it all of my life. You fell away because you chose not to believe at some point in your life but I continued to believe and always ask God to show me more of him. I was not contented by the having God only in my mind, I asked Him to be in my heart.
—Second point, 1 Tim 3:15; Eph 3:10, None of these verses say that what I have now is wrong and what I have before is right and even vice versa. You mentioned, “the Spirit of God does not lead us away..” Exactly, I have tried to live as an obedient child as much as I could (although I always end up crying in repentance), I ask God to lead me to the right path, I even asked my mother to enroll me to a seminary, but I ended up being born-again. You said, “I was not not born again in the Spirit of God.” But how can we know this? Is it because I am not anymore affiliated with the Catholic Church and join a different group, OR we can know this by how it changed our being, I learned to love God more, learned to talk to God for an hour and never get bored (I never felt this before every time i do the Rosary or Station of the Cross). There are moments that i just smile while I talked to God and sometimes I just fall down on my knees and cry when I disobeyed him. How do we know that its the Spirit of God moving through us? a reference to a verse is good but would it not be better if you felt God in your heart.
—Point 3, The first commandment, I still think that the “no graven images” is the second because this was indented in the Catholic Bible or even in the Protestant Bible. But it doesn’t matter if it was the Jews or St. Augustine as long as it was not omitted, its okay with me. If this is so, why do we have a lots of graven images in the Catholic Church and why we kissed them, hold their hands before we make the sign of the cross. I don’t know where did you grow up but I grow up in the Philippines and in my opinion we are very devoted Catholics, our family performed the Rosary every night before going to dinner and you eat last and clean the table if you don’t do the Rosary and you have to attend the mass every Sunday or your neighbors will call you black sheep . Yet, I still wonder why we kissed those graven images and pray and kneel to it when we have in the first commandment not to have it. You may say this is not correct (as what my mother always told me) but this ritual is shown on National TV, not one in the Catholic leadership say this is wrong since they are also part of these events. Two popes have been here and these rituals seems to be accepted. If you’re not familiar with this and you say this should not be the case then there is something very wrong going on in the Roman Catholic Church.
—Point 4: Cherubim and Bronze Serpent. If we both believe that the 10 commandment came from God then I am pretty sure that God will not contradict himself. In my understanding, these items were made as symbols and was not intended to be worship to. In the Catholic Church we pray and bow down on these images when we say our prayers (some people say the prayer is directed to Jesus not on the images, then why do we always have them when we gather and pray, why do we care for it too much that we have to clean it, perfumed it and don’t ever break it) We kiss the statue of Mary, We kiss the image of Jesus on the cross. If you say this is not correct, then again there is something not right in the Catholic Church because this is what I do growing up in the church, these are my task when working at the church. This is the same anywhere in the country.
—Point4: The 9th/10th Commandment- You mentioned that the 9th is different since it refers to a person and the others are objects. Well, i guess this is based on opinions maybe from the people before us. But for me, this is not about treating nouns, this about 10 commandments. This is about not coveting someone/something that is not yours. As you said there are a lot in there not just neighbors wife our house, so this means all these should be in one command, the details about wife and houses and other is about emphasis not differentiation.
Well in the end its about what we have become as a child of God that matters, I don’t think Catholics are not Christian and Protestants are not Christian either. These are merely labels and none of us can claim that “I am a Protestant I am a true Christian” or “I am a Catholic and I am a true Christian”. Which ever group you belong if you do not follow Jesus and love Him with all your heart (not just mind) then you are not a Christian.
But I say this, we will never learned what is loving God meant unless you came to a point that whenever you think of Him you want run to Him and hug Him so tight that you will cry in joy. I can relate the feeling to when you’re very loving Father has gone for a long time and then he comes home. The feeling of loving him like you are again a 5 year old child.
God Bless everyone.
De Maria:
It takes quite an effort to be humble. It does for me, anyway.
Looks like you’re struggling with “un-biblical works based-salvation”. Mary does a better job than you. So You’re un-worthy to even step into her shoes.
Tell me, since you seem to know, if Mary had said, “No.” Whom did God have lined up?
Any Tom, Dick and Harry for that matter. He chose Mary. If she refused, then he could have well chosen someone else.
Look at the Old Testament when many times the Israelite’s spurned away from God, despite they being His chosen people. So what God said? He cried after them? No!!! Look below what he said in Deutronomy:
Deutronomy 32:20 – And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
Deutronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
The foolish nation is the Gentiles – as the salvation plan changed course towards the Gentiles from Acts Chapter 10. God is now using/saving Gentiles as “agents of provocation” to make the nation israel jealous so that they turn back to embrace Him. This is happening as of now.
Precisely. If Mary had said, “No.” God would not have gone shopping around for another woman to be mother to His Son
Yeah? Its nice to know you are God’s mind reader. He certainly would have as in the case i have mentioned what he said in Deuteronomy, above.
De Maria:
When and how do you ever honor Mary and the Saints? The Catholic Church does so in prayers and feasts. When and how do you ever honor God’s elect?
Does the Catholic Church officially teach to “pray” to Mary and the saints? I read a post of Steve here on his blog that its not official teaching of the CC. :=x
Dear De Maria,
Hi seven,
Thank you for your detailed reply,
You’re welcome.
you were able to reply to each of my questions.
—First Point, 1 Cor 2:14, it mentioned ..”some people do not accept it and they don’t understand it.” But I have embraced it, live to it all of my life.
No. You have fallen away from the Church which Jesus Christ built. You have fallen away from Christ. He is one with His Church (Acts 9:3-5; 1 Corinthians 15:9).
You fell away because you chose not to believe at some point in your life but I continued to believe and always ask God to show me more of him. I was not contented by the having God only in my mind, I asked Him to be in my heart.
We have that intimacy with God in the Eucharist.
—Second point, 1 Tim 3:15; Eph 3:10, None of these verses say that what I have now is wrong and what I have before is right and even vice versa.
Yes, they do. And if you want more, this verse says to obey the Church (Matt 18:17). This verse says to obey your priests (Heb 13:17). This verse says not to miss the Mass (Heb 10:25-31). This verse says to hold the Traditions (2 Thess 2:15). This verse says faith alone is dead (James 2:17; 24). And on and on and on. Your Bible only gospel is condemned in Scripture (Gal 1:8).
You mentioned, “the Spirit of God does not lead us away..” Exactly, I have tried to live as an obedient child as much as I could (although I always end up crying in repentance), I ask God to lead me to the right path,
God answered your prayer. He gave you His Church, His Eucharist, His Traditions, His Doctrines, His Devotions, His Saints, and you chose to chuck them all away because some false teacher gave you something you preferred rather than the Word of God (2 Tim 4:3).
I even asked my mother to enroll me to a seminary, but I ended up being born-again. You said, “I was not not born again in the Spirit of God.” But how can we know this?
There are many tests.
1. Obedience. Are you obedient to the Church (Matt 18:17)? The answer is, “No.” You have admitted that you discarded the Church. Therefore, God will treat you with the heathen.
2. You follow a different Gospel (Gal 1:8). The Gospel of faith “alone” is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Matt 25:31-45).
3. You deny and reject the Mass and the Eucharist (Heb 10:25-31).
Is it because I am not anymore affiliated with the Catholic Church and join a different group, OR we can know this by how it changed our being, I learned to love God more, learned to talk to God for an hour and never get bored (I never felt this before every time i do the Rosary or Station of the Cross).
Really? The Rosary and Stations are meditations on the life of Christ. But you claim to love God and to be bored by His life? There seems to be a contradiction there.
There are moments that i just smile while I talked to God and sometimes I just fall down on my knees and cry when I disobeyed him. How do we know that its the Spirit of God moving through us? a reference to a verse is good but would it not be better if you felt God in your heart.
Again, God is not looking for someone to chat with. God is looking for obedient people who will show their love by their obedience to His Word:
John 14:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Its wonderful that you feel good talking to God. Now do what He commands, listen to the Church (Matt 18:17). and to the Priests of His Church (Heb 13:7; 17) and you will be saved.
—Point 3, The first commandment, I still think that the “no graven images” is the second because this was indented in the Catholic Bible or even in the Protestant Bible. But it doesn’t matter if it was the Jews or St. Augustine as long as it was not omitted, its okay with me. If this is so, why do we have a lots of graven images in the Catholic Church and why we kissed them, hold their hands before we make the sign of the cross.
Because we love them. God gave us a family. We are one in Christ. The entire Body of Christ. Those who came before us and those of us being made perfect in this life. We are all one in Christ.
I don’t know where did you grow up but I grow up in the Philippines and in my opinion we are very devoted Catholics, our family performed the Rosary every night before going to dinner and you eat last and clean the table if you don’t do the Rosary and you have to attend the mass every Sunday or your neighbors will call you black sheep . Yet, I still wonder why we kissed those graven images and pray and kneel to it when we have in the first commandment not to have it.
I thought I answered this already. We don’t worship any graven image. We recognize the Saints which they represent and we give them the honor which God expects (Heb 13:7; Psalm 37:28). God loves His Saints. Why don’t you?
You may say this is not correct (as what my mother always told me) but this ritual is shown on National TV, not one in the Catholic leadership say this is wrong since they are also part of these events. Two popes have been here and these rituals seems to be accepted. If you’re not familiar with this and you say this should not be the case then there is something very wrong going on in the Roman Catholic Church.
I have no idea what you’re talking about.
a. Philipinos, for the most part, are very devout Catholics and I admire their faith.
b. I’m not Philipino and I don’t know what goes on in Philipino National TV. Sorry.
—Point 4: Cherubim and Bronze Serpent. If we both believe that the 10 commandment came from God then I am pretty sure that God will not contradict himself. In my understanding, these items were made as symbols and was not intended to be worship to.
We don’t worship the Saints nor any images. If you were raised Catholic, you should know this.
In the Catholic Church we pray and bow down on these images when we say our prayers (some people say the prayer is directed to Jesus not on the images, then why do we always have them when we gather and pray, why do we care for it too much that we have to clean it, perfumed it and don’t ever break it) We kiss the statue of Mary, We kiss the image of Jesus on the cross. If you say this is not correct, then again there is something not right in the Catholic Church because this is what I do growing up in the church, these are my task when working at the church. This is the same anywhere in the country.
We kiss them and pray to them because the Saints whom they represent are alive in Christ. Have you ever kissed pictures of your mom or spouse or children? Same thing.
—Point4: The 9th/10th Commandment- You mentioned that the 9th is different since it refers to a person and the others are objects. Well, i guess this is based on opinions maybe from the people before us. But for me, this is not about treating nouns, this about 10 commandments. This is about not coveting someone/something that is not yours. As you said there are a lot in there not just neighbors wife our house, so this means all these should be in one command, the details about wife and houses and other is about emphasis not differentiation.
If you lump a wife along with the other objects in a household, I can’t help you. However, I can understand why you have fallen away from the Church. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is summed up in one word. Love. We love our wives. We don’t love our possessions. We use those objects to make life better for our wives and our families.
Since you claim you speak to God. Speak to God about that. You need to and quick.
Well in the end its about what we have become as a child of God that matters, I don’t think Catholics are not Christian and Protestants are not Christian either. These are merely labels and none of us can claim that “I am a Protestant I am a true Christian” or “I am a Catholic and I am a true Christian”. Which ever group you belong if you do not follow Jesus and love Him with all your heart (not just mind) then you are not a Christian.
In order to follow Christ with all your heart and soul, you must be Catholic.
But I say this, we will never learned what is loving God meant unless you came to a point that whenever you think of Him you want run to Him and hug Him so tight that you will cry in joy. I can relate the feeling to when you’re very loving Father has gone for a long time and then he comes home. The feeling of loving him like you are again a 5 year old child.
That sounds very pretty. But it is only partially true. If you claim to love God, then obey His Word.
John 15:1-4
King James Version (KJV)
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
And His Word tells you to learn how to behave in His Church (1 Tim 3:15).
God Bless everyone.
And you as well.
Hi Joel,
Looks like you’re struggling with “un-biblical works based-salvation”.
Lol! I guess that means that you don’t think you have any problem being humble. It shows.
Mary does a better job than you. So You’re un-worthy to even step into her shoes.
Thank you for judging me. I believe that statement is true. But I wonder who set you up as my judge? Is that in Scripture?
Any Tom, Dick and Harry for that matter. He chose Mary. If she refused, then he could have well chosen someone else.
So the Woman whom God said is “Blessed among women” is no better than any Tom, Dick and Harry? Please, keep revealing your real beliefs. This is quite interesting and shows where your faith truly comes from.
Look at the Old Testament when many times the Israelite’s spurned away from God, despite they being His chosen people. So what God said? He cried after them? No!!! Look below what he said in Deutronomy:
Deutronomy 32:20 – And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
Deutronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
The foolish nation is the Gentiles – as the salvation plan changed course towards the Gentiles from Acts Chapter 10. God is now using/saving Gentiles as “agents of provocation” to make the nation israel jealous so that they turn back to embrace Him. This is happening as of now.
You are getting yourself confused. Mary did not say, “No.” So how can this be happening as of now?
Yeah? Its nice to know you are God’s mind reader. He certainly would have as in the case i have mentioned what he said in Deuteronomy, above.
Where does that say anything about Mary?
In comparing the Woman whom God said is “blessed among women” to any Tom, Dick and Harry, you have blasphemed. You are calling sinful that which Full of Grace. And it reveals that you don’t read the Scripture according to the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:6).
Sincerely,
De Maria
Hi Joel,
Does the Catholic Church officially teach to “pray” to Mary and the saints? I read a post of Steve here on his blog that its not official teaching of the CC. :=x
I read the same blog. Apparently you didn’t understand it. Steve explained that “pray” does not mean “worship”. Its hard for people like you and seven to understand because you don’t understand the spirit of the Word of God. And because you read the Scriptures apart from the culture and Traditions from which it was written. But it is true. “Prayer” does not mean “worship”.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Hi Seven:
Whatever you say is absolutely right. Apparently I and you know the truths as we were brought up as staunch Roman Catholics, unlike De Maria who was an Atheist and came into the Catholic Church. And know his trying to teach us the difference of prayer and worship in the Catholic Church when we have personally see with our very own eyes. What he historically doesn’t understand is that Catholicism differs from country to country. As Steve points out in his article about “Cradle Catholics” – the tag all Catholic possess that included us once upon a time. Since you are based in the Philipines, than will be aware of the self-flagellation done over there which is appalling, and this is all the fault of the Catholic Church for which Maria staunchly defends like a blind obedient servant. lol!!
De Maria:
I read the same blog. Apparently you didn’t understand it. Steve explained that “pray” does not mean “worship”.
Lets agree on some definitions, ok? We also refer to the post https://www.catholicconvert.com/2011/10/18/do-catholics-worship-mary-3/ ok?
Definitions from http://www.dictionary.com:
HONOR = high respect.
PRAY= to make earnest petition to (a person).
WORSHIP = reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
Steve mentions “honor’ (which means respect) in his article is what the Catholic Church teaches. But when Catholics make the pilgrimages to Marian shrines, it is said as paying homage to the Blessed Virgin which also amounts to Worship as per the said definitions. Therefore homage is also Honor and Worship meaning the same thing.
Garlanding idol statues and chanting prayers is also Worship and Honor as per the definitions. Catholics petition “prayers” to Mary/Saints .. In scripture, Prayer was undoubtedly a part of the pubic worship in the first-century church and Prayer offered to God in accordance with His will is one of the most common expressions of worship in the church that Jesus built. I am reminded of Acts 2:42, where we read, “And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.”
In prayer we give voice to our reverence for God, and that is in a large measure what worship is all about. By taking our petitions and thanksgiving to God, we are freely admitting and acknowledging our absolute dependence upon, and trust in, Him. Paul exhorted the early Christians to fill their lives with prayer. Remember 1 Thessalonians 5:17, “Pray without ceasing.”
In petitioning prayers or paying homage to Mary amounts to worship and deification, because it wasn’t case in the first century Church. In fact Jesus recommended his disciples to pray to the Father in his name so we have to be obedient what Jesus commands if we are to brag that it was the Catholic Jesus established .
Hi Joel,
Lets agree on some definitions, ok?
Ok.
We also refer to the post https://www.catholicconvert.com/2011/10/18/do-catholics-worship-mary-3/ ok?
Ok.
Definitions from http://www.dictionary.com:
HONOR = high respect.
PRAY= to make earnest petition to (a person).
WORSHIP = reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
Steve mentions “honor’ (which means respect) in his article is what the Catholic Church teaches.
Correct.
But when Catholics make the pilgrimages to Marian shrines, it is said as paying homage to the Blessed Virgin which also amounts to Worship as per the said definitions.
1st. You didn’t include a definition for homage. Here’s the definition from Dictionary.com:
Homage – respect or reverence paid or rendered
That says nothing about worship.
2. Homage and respect directed to God, is worship. Homage can be directed to God or man. When it is directed to God, it is part of man’s worship of God. When it is directed to man, it part of man’s respect for that man.
Therefore homage is also Honor and Worship meaning the same thing.
Not the same thing. Have you ever heard of context? We can honor dogs. Dogs have done heroic things in the service of man. Yet that is not worship. I can pay homage to a President or other important person. That is not worship. I like the Merriam Webster online because it shows examples of how to use a word. Here are the examples it gives:
Examples of HOMAGE
1. Her book is a homage to her favorite city.
2. the poem is a moving homage to all who have served in our nation’s armed services
Garlanding idol statues and chanting prayers is also Worship and Honor as per the definitions.
1. We have no idols in the Catholic Church.
2. Putting garlands on images of famous and beloved persons, such as the Saints or war heroes, simply honors the person. The image knows nothing and feels nothing. It is like the images you carry in your wallet or keep on your cell phone. They are reminders of they whom we love.
Catholics petition “prayers” to Mary/Saints .. In scripture, Prayer was undoubtedly a part of the pubic worship in the first-century church and Prayer offered to God in accordance with His will is one of the most common expressions of worship in the church that Jesus built. I am reminded of Acts 2:42, where we read, “And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.”
1. Apostles doctrine, fellowship and breaking bread, that is a description of the Mass.
2. By first century, you mean, in Scripture. There are many examples of prayer to Saints in Scripture, if you simply look for them:
Psalm 103:20
Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.
Psalm 148:2
Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.
Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
In prayer we give voice to our reverence for God, and that is in a large measure what worship is all about. By taking our petitions and thanksgiving to God, we are freely admitting and acknowledging our absolute dependence upon, and trust in, Him. Paul exhorted the early Christians to fill their lives with prayer. Remember 1 Thessalonians 5:17, “Pray without ceasing.”
Yeah. Remember 1 Thess 5:24? How about 1 Timothy 2:1? Do you think that Christians who die and yet live in Christ, will stop praying simply because they are dead? Do you not believe what Christ said (Luke 20:38; John 11:25)?
In petitioning prayers or paying homage to Mary amounts to worship and deification, because it wasn’t case in the first century Church.
Yes, it was. Luke 1:26-30; 41; 42 all pay great homage to Mary because this is the Word of God. And God commands us to continue paying great homage to Mary; Luke 1:48.
In fact Jesus recommended his disciples to pray to the Father in his name so we have to be obedient what Jesus commands if we are to brag that it was the Catholic Jesus established .
We do pray to the Father in Jesus name. But we also ask others to pray for us in obedience to Scripture:
Job 42:8; James 5:16-17
Sincerely,
De Maria
Dear De Maria,
Thanks again for the reply.
Please don’t take this wrongly(these are just my opinions), but the more you answer my questions the more I felt that your “Roman Catholic Church” is not the same with the “Roman Catholic Church” I grew up with. It seems like, what you know is based on what you read and understand, mine is what i actually do as a Catholic and what is taught to me by those who are called leaders of the church.
You mentioned “We have that intimacy with God in the Eucharist.”
This convince me that what you say is based what you read/studied. I have done this so many times yet i never felt God in my heart the way I feel for Him now. If this is what you called intimacy, I have been there and its not, there is more.
You said, “We don’t worship the Saints nor any images. If you were raised Catholic, you should know this”. I am not so sure if you really know what you are talking about. Tell it to the Pope because he approved this; in YouTube: watch?v=mI0ORjmXso4&feature=related.
LoL! “We kiss them and pray to them because the Saints whom they represent are alive in Christ. Have you ever kissed pictures of your mom or spouse or children? Same thing.” I know what you are saying, I used this before when I was a Catholic and made the Baptist classmate of mine cry in an argument. But again I know what you are saying but his not what I mean.
And by the way, I was born-again by accident, nobody tried to convert me. I was attending 2 churches at the same time for a year. My Catholics friends told me its wrong, the other group said they don’t mind if I still attend to the Catholic church. I just pray to God and ask Him to bring me to the right path.
Thank you again for your time. God Bless.
Hi seven,
Thanks again for the reply.
Please don’t take this wrongly(these are just my opinions), but the more you answer my questions the more I felt that your “Roman Catholic Church” is not the same with the “Roman Catholic Church” I grew up with. It seems like, what you know is based on what you read and understand, mine is what i actually do as a Catholic and what is taught to me by those who are called leaders of the church.
I understand. I also fell away from the Church at a young age. I realize now that I fell away from the Church because I did not understand what my leaders were telling me. Further, I realize that I didn’t understand because I didn’t have faith. God does not grant understanding to people simply because they study. God grants understanding to those who obey His Word.
St. Augustine, probably the greatest teacher of the Christian faith, said, “believe that you may understand”.
You mentioned “We have that intimacy with God in the Eucharist.”
This convince me that what you say is based what you read/studied. I have done this so many times yet i never felt God in my heart the way I feel for Him now. If this is what you called intimacy, I have been there and its not, there is more.
Again, I understand. When I was making my first communion, one of the reasons I fell away is because I was told that I would FEEL the grace pour through me. But I didn’t. Therefore, I thought it must be a lie.
However, just because I have never felt the grace pour through me, doesn’t mean that it isn’t real.
The fact is that our human feelings are fickle. If you rely upon your human feelings to believe in God, you will find yourself converting away from God all together when those human feelings fail you. Faith in God is a movement of the will. You must believe in God even when you can’t believe your eyes and your taste buds. God is in the Eucharist. Faith alone reveals this to you.
You said, “We don’t worship the Saints nor any images. If you were raised Catholic, you should know this”. I am not so sure if you really know what you are talking about. Tell it to the Pope because he approved this; in YouTube: watch?v=mI0ORjmXso4&feature=related.
The Pope does not approve of worshipping anyone but God.
LoL! “We kiss them and pray to them because the Saints whom they represent are alive in Christ. Have you ever kissed pictures of your mom or spouse or children? Same thing.” I know what you are saying, I used this before when I was a Catholic and made the Baptist classmate of mine cry in an argument. But again I know what you are saying but his not what I mean.
And by the way, I was born-again by accident, nobody tried to convert me. I was attending 2 churches at the same time for a year. My Catholics friends told me its wrong, the other group said they don’t mind if I still attend to the Catholic church. I just pray to God and ask Him to bring me to the right path.
If you have left the Catholic Church, that was not the answer to your prayer.
Thank you again for your time. God Bless.
Thanks for your cordial messages and God bless you also.
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria,
Thank God for you! I went on similar path to you raised Catholic, fell away, grew up and found the truth with the help of a fantastic priest and lots of research. I recently had a similar discussion with a fallen away Catholic, who had written an anti Catholic article in the local paper. What I found is simular to what you have encountered with these non believers. Its almost like trying to help a blind person understand the beauty of a rainbow. No matter how hard you try if there eyes are not able to see it is hard to help them understand. But by your excellent defense you have strengthened a brother. Thank you and God Bless you.
De Maria:
Why does the pope invite every year other world religions for an ecumenical dialog with them at the vatican and share a table with them as camaraderie.? Is it not in violation of one of the 10 Commandments? Off-course you will say it is because to usher peace. But surely there are other ways toward peaceful co-existence better than comprising what God commands in the scriptures. Mother Theresa also said that all roads lead to one God which is contrary as the scriptures say the only Jesus is the Truth, the Way, and the Life (John 14:6). This is gross violation of the teachings of scriptures and a blasphemy of the highest order. Jesus said this clearly in 1 Corinthians 10:21.
Dear De Maria,
Thanks again for the reply.
I just pray that in the end we shall see each other in heaven.
But one last thing, you mentioned;
” The Pope does not approve of worshipping anyone but God.” – in response to YouTube: watch?v=mI0ORjmXso4&feature=related.
Again, 2 Popes have been here and if this is not approved then why is it that neither of them gave the order to stop this annual celebration. Why did both Pope condone it? I think the answer is very clear.
If you are a leader of a group and a certain members are doing something against the rules (law), you will do your very best to stop them right? And if you don’t do anything then it just simply mean you accept it. In this case both the Pope and I were in the same “Catholic” church and yours is different.
You both seem to be searching for somthing to hate. And Seven unlike your church, our Church is lead by Jesus Christ ( If you are the leader of a group). We do have a prime minister if you will, appointed by Jesus himself when he created the office with Peter, remeber the Keys. And Joel, all roads do lead to Christ, its just people like you chose not to take them no matter how many times you are shown the map. It is time to educate yourselves guys. If you are going to iterpet scripture, please understand what you are reading.
I will pray for you all, but remeber ignorance may be bliss but the Truth will set you free! So though you both may be happy where you are you need to free your minds of the shakles of ignorance.
Hi Joel,
All I can say is, “Thank God that you are not our Judge!”
Apparently, Joel, you are the only one who is saved. As you consider yourself perfect.
Why does the pope invite every year other world religions for an ecumenical dialog with them at the vatican and share a table with them as camaraderie.?
In obedience to the Great Commission (Matt 28:19-20).
Is it not in violation of one of the 10 Commandments?
Which one?
Off-course you will say it is because to usher peace. But surely there are other ways toward peaceful co-existence better than comprising what God commands in the scriptures.
God commands that we should preach the Gospel to the whole world.
Mother Theresa also said that all roads lead to one God which is contrary as the scriptures say the only Jesus is the Truth, the Way, and the Life (John 14:6).
Can you be more specific? I never heard Mother Theresa say any such thing.
This is gross violation of the teachings of scriptures and a blasphemy of the highest order. Jesus said this clearly in 1 Corinthians 10:21.
You’re making up stuff. Be specific. Please provide exact quotes so that we can examine them in context.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Dear De Maria,
Hello seven.
Thanks again for the reply
You’re welcome.
I just pray that in the end we shall see each other in heaven.
As do I.
But one last thing, you mentioned;
” The Pope does not approve of worshipping anyone but God.” – in response to YouTube: watch?v=mI0ORjmXso4&feature=related.
Correct. We only worship God.
Again, 2 Popes have been here and if this is not approved then why is it that neither of them gave the order to stop this annual celebration.
The Black Nazarene? Because it is worship of God. Why should they forbid the veneration of that image of Jesus Christ?
Why did both Pope condone it? I think the answer is very clear.
I think so, too.
If you are a leader of a group and a certain members are doing something against the rules (law), you will do your very best to stop them right?
What are they doing against the rules?
And if you don’t do anything then it just simply mean you accept it. In this case both the Pope and I were in the same “Catholic” church and yours is different.
The Pope and I are in the same Catholic Church. Yours is different. You don’t understand the worship of Jesus Christ. You are not even Christian.
For those who don’t know what seven is objecting about, it is the procession with a dark wooden statue depicting Jesus carrying His Cross.
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria,
Thank God for you! I went on similar path to you raised Catholic, fell away, grew up and found the truth with the help of a fantastic priest and lots of research. I recently had a similar discussion with a fallen away Catholic, who had written an anti Catholic article in the local paper. What I found is simular to what you have encountered with these non believers. Its almost like trying to help a blind person understand the beauty of a rainbow. No matter how hard you try if there eyes are not able to see it is hard to help them understand. But by your excellent defense you have strengthened a brother. Thank you and God Bless you.
You are absolutely correct. All we do is plant and water. God gives the growth. I don’t even look for results. But messages like yours help to stoke my fire.
Thank you, Paul. And God bless you as well,
Sincerely,
De Maria
Paul,
You both seem to be searching for somthing to hate. And Seven unlike your church, our Church is lead by Jesus Christ ( If you are the leader of a group). We do have a prime minister if you will, appointed by Jesus himself when he created the office with Peter, remeber the Keys. And Joel, all roads do lead to Christ, its just people like you chose not to take them no matter how many times you are shown the map. It is time to educate yourselves guys. If you are going to iterpet scripture, please understand what you are reading.
I will pray for you all, but remeber ignorance may be bliss but the Truth will set you free! So though you both may be happy where you are you need to free your minds of the shakles of ignorance.
WELL SAID! You got to the crux of the matter with no extra words.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Dear Friends, greetings to all of you.
St.James says, Pray for each other, which includes the departed one. If someone say, we only pray for the one who is alive (consciousness, mean can hear,talk,see, repent etc.) ; so my question is, are the departed souls are unconscious? No they are not, that is what the bible says: please read the below verses:
Luke 20:37-38- God is the God of Abraham,,Issac,and Jacob. He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
2 Corinthians 5 – that when we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord–and where does the Lord live? Heaven, of course
1 Thess 4:13-18, one day the Lord will come for His saints on earth, to meet the saints already in Heaven.
John 11:25- Whoever believes in me, though he dies, yet shall he live?
John 6:53- Truly, truly, I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Titus 2:11- For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people (dead and alive alike),
Rom .8:35/8:38-39- That is why Paul says, nothing shall separate us from the Love of Christ…….
1 peter 4:6- For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
1 Peter 3:19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirit in prison…
2 Tim 1:16-18 May the Lord grand mercy to the household of Onesiphorus for the……
James 5:16- “Pray for one another… The prayer of a righteous man has great power.” Is this prayer only for the living? Given that death does not disrupt the unity of Christ’s body, that is, those of us
1 Corn 15:43-57- If there is natural body there is also spiritual body
Eccl:12:7- and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Genesis 2:17- The day that you eat the fruit, you shall surely die.
Note: the very same day…you will surely die…
…..100%…..die Adam/Eve die?…
Genesis 5:5-6 Adam lived 930 years in his body.
Genesis 3:4 the serpent said “ye shall not surely die”…the old serpent was right.
(Since they continued to have life in their physical bodies, after eating the fruit, it is evident that they had another form of life, in addition to their physical life, that was lost (communion with God) in the same day that they ate the forbidden fruit.
Hebrew 13:7- Remember your elders those who spoke to you the word of God, consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.
1 Timothy 2:1-3- First of all then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. This is good, and pleases God our savior, who wants all people (NOTE) to be saved and to come knowledge of the truth.
I will give you Biblical evidences that it is absolutely correct to Remember, Pray and interceed for our departed loved ones who believed in Almighty God.
Yours in Him
The Catholic church IS THE ONLY CHRISTIAN church that was around until the reformation….Jesus started IT–martin luther started the reformation and the pro test tant churches then came about…there are now over 32,000 protestant churches in the world…all began my humans…if someone didn’t like their church anymore they began their own religion…on and on and on it has been since. TRUTH does not CHANGE EVER. The Catholic church has been around for over 2,000 years…why would anyone who is searching for truth go back a just 500 years or so FOR THE TRUTH…if this was the year 1412 instead of 2012 you would be attending a Catholic Church for Mass, why do any of you want to even think about going and learning a religion started by man …man made religion with man made rules…and at their whim they change the rules….just plain weird to me. Just so simple in my way of thinking to stay with the truth that Jesus gave us through the church HE as the 2nd person of the Trinity began. Trust in JESUS to have given us all the truths we need to KNOW HIM, SERVE HIM, AND LOVE HIM!
Several notes:
On the comment that you said for Matthew 10:40-42, it does not say “pray” to a righteous person. It says recognize. So admit that he or she is righteous, it does not say to pray.
It also says in Luke 3:8 (NIV) “Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.”
So my point is Jesus was making a point that Abraham is not the Father, and that God can raise up everything and Abraham cannot.
You also mention ” 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
Jesus is the mediator to God, not saints. And Abel, is not better than God.
Just giving the other side 🙂
God Bless
No one is a saint, only jesus becuase he was the only holy one… come on how simple is that….
STEVE RAY HERE:
What in the world are you talking about? Of course Jesus is holy but he intends us to be holy as well. Even Paul refers to the people in his epistles as saints, or holy ones. Maybe you want to read your Bible more carefully.
James says in James 2:24, “You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”
“What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” (James 2:14).
In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, “Faith without works is dead,” (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.
James actually quotes the same verse that Paul quotes in Rom. 4:3 amongst a host of verses dealing with justification by faith. James 2:23 says, “and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'” If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example. Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith, not real faith when he said we are not justified by faith alone.
STEVE RAY HERE:
It is always interesting to see someone twist the scripture to sit there man-made tradition. Once you’ve accepted Martin Luther’s false doctrine of faith alone, then you have to twist the other writers of Scripture to fit your man-made tradition.
I saw the Peter and Paul pray for Victor inscription in the late 80s – still sends shivers down my spine to think they had been there.
Hi everyone
I grew up catholic and still catholic. I have gf who’s born again and his father is a pastor. To those who are born again,i have few question to you guys. and also i need help about this. My relationship with my gf is falling apart because of our differences in our religion.
1. Why does “some” born again doesn’t want to be with a catholic? Her father tells her to broke up with me because im catholic. Is this what born again practices at their homes?(you are not the only religion around today)
2. Who are you guys to decide who to be with or not? aren’t we all same, in one roof? we eat, we die.
if this is about faith, If you believe in GOD. Then telling her daughter to broke up with me is a bad example of “GOOD works” with faith.. Because faith alone without works it’s like saying it’s ok to steal money but you believe in GOD.
3 Catholic worship only ONE GOD. why do you guys insist we’re pagan like?
4. to SEVEN. im from philippines. We only worship one GOD. You must have missed something.
In reality not all catholics are really reading their bibles. i do admit that too. Im thankful i found this site where i can really defend my religion.
Back to my story. Me and my gf ,we’re together for 1 year and a month now. My gf’s father always tells her to broke up with me, now my gf decides to broke up with me because i really need to convert to born again. I’m really frustrated because i really love her. I ask my gf which part of the bible that says i need to convert to born again. She can’t answer it so as his pastor father. Im pretty sure about that.
I don’t really have much a choice but to convert here, but haven’t decided yet. Coz in my heart and mind, really wants me to stay catholic. It really bothers me and against my will to convert.
If this isn’t the right site, please direct me. But if someone could help me out,would be appreciated.
All Ye Protestants and Catholics
We are a non-denominational protestant group, who don’t keep relations with the outside Church, for we all deem the Church other than ours useless. Ours is the only Church which will go for rapture. Revelation 6:2 the Rider on the White Horse is our ex-Apostle who I believe went to the Lord. We don’t take medicines, and have a strong faith in the current Apostle anointed by the Church. When we can’t do miracles, we say that we have stopped miracles. Our youngsters have died by not taking the medicines, but they have never preached Christ. Our current Apostle says, to the believers, to just believe in him and he will take us all to the rapture. He says that his calling is like Joshua from the OT, the other name for Christ, so Joshua equals to Jesus and I think he is just short of claiming himself that he is Christ, who has made his appearance. We keep images of our yesteryear leaders of our ex-Apostle and his sister who was the Prophet in the Church, and naturally people will tend to worship them. We celebrate their Holy Spirit days, Birthdays, etc etc and in all we have 24 days to celebrate for the leaders. Our Church comes out with a magazine every month, and our young youth and foolish elders instead of reading the Bible, they quote from the magazine and its enough, the leader who writes the article every month is praised and God and Jesus are sidelined. Oh! we also light candles in front of the images. Our present Apostle also claims that are you all ready, should I call Jesus Christ down, and sometimes he says, that Jesus Christ will not come, he will definitely confide with our Apostle before his Second Coming.
WE OBJECTED TO ALL THESE THINGS, AND OUR FAMILIES ARE OSTRACISED, NO ONE IS TO TALK TO US NOR KEEP FELLOWSHIP WITH US. NO HOLY COMMUNION AND WE ARE TERMED AS SATAN.
Praise the Lord
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
STEVE RAY HERE:
AMEN BROTHER. AND THEN JESUS SAYS IN JOHN 3:5 THAT NEW BIRTH COMES ABOUT BY “WATER AND SPIRIT” WHICH IS WATER BAPTISM JUST LIKE HE HAD JUST DONE IN THE JORDAN RIVER.
Steve, I lay no claim as an expert in theology. I have met protestant men and women who clearly have the peace of God and the fruit of the Spirit. Likewise, I have met many Catholic men and women who possess the same. If I were at an elementary school with my children and you were as well holding hands while in a circle around the flag pole should I be condemned if I make the sign of the cross? Should my children? Should I, as an adult, as a believer in Jesus Christ, condemn you if you do not? Should I say that you and your children will be treated as heathens? Certainly not to either. Change the location to an abortion clinic. How about a street overtaken by drugs and violence? A mission trip to serve others and pray they not see us but Christ’s love in us. While we argue over doctrinal issues we are rapidly losing ground. Do I agree that if Mary had said no that it would have stopped Gods plan of salvation? Absolutely not. Mary is a holy woman who was full of courage and grace. God knew her answer before time came into being. Likewise, I agree faith without works is dead. We are saved for good works not by good works lest we should boast. If you and I sat down could we be civil and agree to disagree on doctrine? Could we agree that Jesus is the way the truth and the light? A lot of words for this…if we could not then we better spend more time in the Word and less time on your site. ; )…no offense intended. God bless you and yours.
I did mean life…not light. Told you.
Dear De Maria… In the name of the Father,and of the Son,and of the Holy Spirit, You and Steve did a great job for defending the truth teaching of the Holy Catholic Church and will continue until the end of the world.
Two really obvious points: 1) These references are long after the Apostles were dead so “no ringing in their ears” stems from them. 2) What you’ve actually shown is a transitional period when the Church thought of the saints praying for us to a later time when we began to pray to them.
Thank you Steve! Always blessed by your faithfulness to the Church and sound doctrine. Brothers and sisters in Christ are praying for you to keep up the good work.
Would you please read the Lord's prayer. Jesus prayed it. He was giving an example on how to pray. He didn't pray to Peter, Paul, Mary, or John-who took care of Jesus's mother and wrote Revelation. No He prayed to His Father. This is Jesus Himself praying, should we not follow Him, like He asked Peter and His disciples to follow Him. This reference in 350AD is close to 270 years or more after the disciples died. The disciples who wrote the gospel. Do their words of what Christ told them mean nothing?
STEVE RAY HERE: First, thanks for writing Barry and God bless you.
Second, well you need to remember that the words pray and worship are two different words with different meanings. Pray Is to ask for something, it means a petition or a request.
Third, when we pray to Saint it is not worshiping them. It is asking them to intercede WITH us as we pray to God himself. God is the only one who can answer prayers.
Fourth, when Jesus was on the earth the Saints were not yet in glory. When Jesus ascended to heaven he brought the dead with him to the presence of God. From that point on they’re in the presence of God himself and can intercede personally for people still on earth (or do you think they can’t or don’t care?)
Fifth, we are to pray for each other and to ask others to pray for us. We believe the church is one organic body not split up and divided and those in heaven are part of the body of Christ like we are. We ask them to intercede for us just like I could ask you to intercede for me. Even though I can’t see you or talk to you personally but I can use technology to do it. I don’t know how spiritual technology works but I certainly trust the Scriptures and the church That the Saints are very much alive in the presence of God, are concerned about what’s going on down on earth and can easily request from God benefits on our behalf.
Sixth, Believers have been asking for the prayers of the Saints since the beginning. All one has to do is look at the graffiti left in the catacombs to see where they said from the first centuries “Peter and Paul pray for us”. In the catacombs of Saint Sebastian there’s one segment of wall covering the area where the bodies of Peter and Paul wants rested and there are 614 requests for intersession scratched into the wall from the very first Christians.
Seventh, this is just scratching the surface. There is so much more to say but if you’re interested you’ll find the sources. If you’re not then I feel sorry for you.
Referencing scratching on gravesites and ancient graffiti is pretty week. That's like me telling the building inspector that I built it wrong because the guy before me did. You can defend Christian Paganism if you like but really you should stay with the gospel that's what saves.
STEVE RAY HERE: First of all, I think you meant "weak", not "week." Second, these people still had the words of the apostles ringing in their ears long before the New Testament was collected into a final book. These early Christians were living the Gospel as taught them by the apostles. If my argument was from “scratching on gravesites” alone, I would agree it is a bit weak, but when you consider the preponderance of Scripture, Jewish practices and the teachings of the early Church it is overwhelming. I dare you to begin reading the Fathers of the Church who are authentic witnesses to the teaching and practice of the Apostles. Your idea of the "gospel" is very limited and mostly the result of the traditions of men in the last couple hundred years. Sorry, but you won't find the whole Evangelical Fundamentalist protestant theological innovations in the early Church.
Kelsey December 17, 2012 at 9:34 PM
Several notes:
On the comment that you said for Matthew 10:40-42, it does not say “pray” to a righteous person. It says recognize. So admit that he or she is righteous, it does not say to pray.
The King James and other Bibles say,
Matthew 10:40-42
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
Protestants claim that one must only pray in the name of Christ, because Jesus Christ said:
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
When the whole Gospel is taken in context, it is clear that Jesus expected us to have recourse to the Saints in our prayers.
It also says in Luke 3:8 (NIV) “Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.”
So my point is Jesus was making a point that Abraham is not the Father, and that God can raise up everything and Abraham cannot.
Again, yours is the Protestant understanding of that verse. Whereas, that verse says that God is not a respecter of persons and it debunks the idea of salvation by faith alone. Jesus is saying, “Don’t think that God will answer your prayers simply because you are circumcized Jews, in order to be saved, you must produce righteous works meet for repentance.”
You also mention ” 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
Jesus is the mediator to God, not saints.
If that were all that Scripture said, you would be right. But you need to remove this verse from Scripture before you can claim that Jesus is the only mediator before the Father:
2 Corinthians 5:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
And Abel, is not better than God.
I didn’t say that he was. But that Scripture recognizes that Abel is still alive today. Even though he died.
Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Just giving the other side 🙂
No problem. Sorry I missed it. But maybe this will help those who thought your objections couldn’t be answered.
Barry: Jesus did NOT pray the Lord's Prayer; he taught us to pray it. He never called His Father "Our Father" (although He told us to do so), because His Sonship and ours are not the same. He is the natural Son of God; we are the adopted sons. He never asked His Father to forgive His trespasses; Jesus is God; He committed no sins; He had no trespasses to be forgiven.
STEVE RAY HERE: Good points Bill. Thanks for all of your support and explanations over the years. It’s always much appreciated. Thanks!
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