The Bible says, “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim 2:5). Yet Catholics refer to Mary as a Mediatrix (feminine form of the word mediator).
So, isn’t that prima facie evidence that Catholics make up doctrines, worship Mary and disregard the Bible?
I was again challenged with this the other day. Interesting how the same old, same old keeps coming up no matter how many times you answer it. Interesting how these same misconceptions keep coming up as though some contentious power keeps inserting them into gullible minds. Interesting how people love to twist the rubber nose to make it obscene, grotesque, and distorted.
So here was my short response — again!
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God has provided the solution. He has provided the-one-and-only Mediator (1 Tim 2:5), the bridge, the stairway between heaven and earth, (John 1:51 based on the ladder seen by Jacob). This one Mediator is the God-Man Jesus Christ and he is the only one that can bridge the gap–mediate–between heaven and earth to bring reconciliation between God and men.
Thus, there is one Mediator to reconcile God and man. Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant as the writer of Hebrews informs us three times, for example: “Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel” (Heb 8:6, 9:15, 12:24). No one else could have ever become such a mediator of the New Covenant.
However, after Jesus has accomplished such an act of redemption and mediatorship, he calls us to share in his ministry.
I remember my father saying to me before I joined the Catholic Church, “When you become Catholic you will pray to Mary and remember that Paul says there is only one Mediator between God and man.” I lovingly but sternly replied to my father, “Dad, never ask me to pray for you again!”
My father was shocked but understood my meaning. As soon as he asks me to pray for him — he asks me to be a mediator between him and God. I told him that to be consistent with his Protestant theology he should not ask me or anyone else to intercede for him, to be a mediator — one who stands in the middle — but he should pray directly to Jesus himself.
Mary is not the infinite mediator, nor does she impose on the prerogatives of her Son. She, like us, intercedes for sinners and the people of God. Mediatrix is simply the feminine form of mediator. All of us share in the ministry of Christ, mediating and praying for our fellow man. In this sense, all of us are mediators and the females among us are mediatrixes.
I am frequently asked, “Where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints?” to which I usually ask, “Where does the Bible say that saints are dead?”
Those of us, including most Protestants, believe that when a person dies in friendship with Christ they are still alive in Christ.
To prove that those who died in a state of grace were not dead, Jesus said to the Sadducees (who didn’t believe in the resurrection which is why they were “sad you see” — as my dad used to joke with us kids), “‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living” (Matt 22:32). Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were still alive.
Those who say “Why do you Catholics pray to dead saints” need to understand that those who die in Christ are not dead. Catholics affirm that they are alive and in the presence of Christ and that they can intercede for us as much as my father or I can intercede for each other.
Mary and the saints do not answer our prayers, any more than I answer the prayers of my dad. Rather, Mary, the saints and you and I all are intercessors. We do not answer the prayers, we simply intercede with the Father through his Son Jesus.
When I take pilgrimage groups to Israel I always take them to the top of Mount Tabor where the Transfiguration took place. I always ask people how a “dead guy” like Moses could be talking to Jesus about things that are taking place on earth (Lk 9:31).
When my father asks me to pray for him he asks me to stand in the middle — to be a mediator, an intercessor — and when God commands me to preach the gospel to the lost, he tells me to stand in the middle — to be an ambassador for Christ as Paul says,
“Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God” (2 Cor 5:20).
I hope that helps explain why we call Mary a mediatrix and why all of us are mini-mediators sharing in the ministry of Christ — the one-and-only mediator of the New Covenant, but certainly not in any way claiming to be the one mediator of the New Covenant, nor in any way arrogating to ourselves or to Mary the unique prerogatives and ministry of Jesus.
One last thought on this matter. Sometimes there is a misunderstanding of the differences between prayer and worship. In the Catholic tradition they are very different things. In Protestantism prayer and worship are sometimes used as synonyms. Pray simply means to ask, whereas worship is to adore.
If a Catholic says he “prays to Mary” it’s perceived as worship by many Protestants, but the Catholic it simply making a request that Mary intercede for us — the same as when my dad asked me to intercede for him. In Catholicism there is a big difference between pray and worship.
For more on this and other Marian topics, all filmed on location in the Holy Land, check out my documentary MARY, MOTHER OF GOD here.
This Post Has 31 Comments
Thanks, Steve, for this balanced and articulate explanation of an issue that creates huge obstacles in the hearts of many well-meaning brethren.
Thanks. I will keep and save this article and use it to e-mail my protestant friends when they ask me the Why’s concerning Mary and the Saints? ~Patricia
Some have a mindset no matter what.
thank you for this information, it helps me
Let’s suppose I need to cross from West Virginia to Ohio. I have to cross a bridge over the Ohio River to do that. (I’m ignoring all other physically possible routes — no analogy is perfect!) To get me across, the bridge has to sit in West Virginia on one side and in Ohio on the other, just as Christ is both man and God and spans the divide between man and God, giving us access to God. There is only one “bridge” because only one person is both God and man.
But even saying “there is only one bridge between West Virginia and Ohio” does not mean “there is only one bridge between Charleston and Ohio”. I may have to cross several bridges on my way, but each of these bridges will lie entirely within West Virginia. Such a bridge is like Mary, who is only human.
“There is one mediator between God and man” does not mean the same thing as “there is one mediator between God and Howard”!
We are fortunate that in our time Jesus sends his mother, Mary, to act as a Mediatrix. Like “Jacobs Ladder” that you mention many can approach Jesus through his Mother – with ease, as she always listens to our requests, and our continual need for renewal and conversion. Your simple explanation is heartening and useful.
An important point missed: The issue that Mary and the Saints are not omniscient is mysteriously left out. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations and couldn’t possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Your Dad (on the other hand) doesn’t need to be omniscient because you can ask him face-to-face. Please take this well, but as a suggestion, you may wish to ask your Dad’s forgiveness as your response may have hurt him.
Ok… We can agree that the Bible is the Word of God. Yes? If the Word of God is our rule-book (2 Tim 3:15-17), then where are we instructed to ask anyone in Heaven to pray for us? If this is important, then were the apostles mistaken by not mentioning the importance of asking someone in heaven to pray for us sinners?
I respectfully submit that it is plainly clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for you. One has a strong Biblical basis, the other has no Biblical basis whatsoever.
Written in sincerity and love,
STEVE RAY HERE: DAVID, I DON’T DOUBT YOUR SINCERITY AND LOVE, AND I APPRECIATE YOU WRITING AND YOUR KIND AND MEASURED TONE. I ALSO RECOGNIZE YOUR OBVIOUS ACCEPTANCE OF THE FAULTY PROTESTANT TRADITION OF MEN.
A few comments. We do not know the “technology of heaven” and what saints can and cannot do there. They have new bodies and are outside of space and time as we know it today. Are you saying you know and fully understand what the state and capabilities saints are in heaven? And if you deny that they can hear or be interested in the petitions from fellow believers on earth, what passage of scripture do you offer as a denial or proof of your point?
We are told the angels bring bowls to heaven full of the prayers of the saints. We do not know how all of this works, but I will go with the constant teaching of the Church, which by the way, is how we even have a Bible today and know what books belong within its canon. It always amazes me that Protestants unquestionably accept the canon of the NT handed down from the councils and bishops of the Catholic Church (along with the definition and defense of the divinity of Christ and the Trinity) yet consider the Church unreliable on other matters of constant teaching.
You make an assumption here that does not hold water and therefore your argument leaks like water from a sieve. You accept the Bible as the “rule book” which you offer no proof of it as the ONLY source of authority. We Catholics also regard Scripture as the unique, infallible, authoritative, inspired word of God, but we recognize other authority as well. All Christians did until the Protestant revolt where the rebels formed a new, man-made doctrine of Sola Scriptura. 2 Tim 3:15-17 as you cite above does not even come close to claiming scripture as the ONLY authority. In fact, if you use this you prove too much since Paul was referring here only to the Old Testament since there was no NT yet.
Paul said, “Hold fast to the traditions I left you” (1 Cor 11:2; 2 Thess 2:15; 3:6). It is NOT Scripture alone. To assert that everything has to be explicity stated in the Bible is unbiblical. Where do you find in the Bible that you have to prove everything explicitely from the Bible? You don’t and therefore again your argument falls down.
So, you start with faulty premises which is why you end up with faulty conclusions. Again I could write much more but I am limited in time. This has been answered so many times that it is not necessary for me to write a full explanation.
You can read more on this here http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
Respectfully, I am investigating Catholicism intently, as I never see myself entering the doors of another Protestant church, but I would like to lovingly comment about the analogy between intercessory prayer to Mary and intercessory prayer made at someone else’s request, as is common of Protestants. The difference between the two is simple but profound: Catholics offer intercessory prayer directly to Mary, a Saint but non-deity. Protestants offer intercessory prayer to Jesus, the eternal Son of God, so it doesn’t matter to them who is saying the prayer. One is praying to Mary, the other to Jesus. That’s where Protestants have their hang-ups. Thank you.
But actually, “pray” means to make a request. We can make a request to Jesus, to Mary or to Aunt Millie. “Pray” does not mean worship or recognize as a deity. What Catholics actually do when they “pray” to Mary is ask her for her intercession.
This article makes perfect sence!
The problem I see, though, is when we ask another human to intercede for us in prayer, it is face to face or voice to voice. I don’t see how saints in Heaven can hear our prayer requests without omnipresence.
Oops! You answered that a couple of posts ago!
So basically, one can’t really know for sure that the saints hear our requests, but since it is not a practice that God has forbidden, then why not, I mean, we need all the help we can get!
I would just add that just as the author delineates between prayer and worship (and the Protestants do not, as the author claims, use the terms interchangeably. Prayer is a form of worship, as is song, servitude and Bible study); there is a difference between the concepts of mediator-ship and intercessor-ship. Jesus directed us to pray to the Father and we do so in the Name of His Son, Jesus. Prayer directed toward any other is idolatry.
STEVE RAY HERE IN CAPITAL LETTERS. THIS OF COURSE IS PURE AND SIMPLE FUNDAMENTALIST PROTESTANT TRADITION BEING ESPOUSED BY LIZ. I APPRECIATE HER CANDOR THOUGH. WORSHIP IN THE CONTEXT OF HISTORICAL CHRISTIANITY HAS BEEN EXPRESSED AT ITS HIGHEST IN THE MASS. THIS IS INCONTESTABLE AND ONLY DENIED BY THOSE WHO DON’T KNOW THEIR HISTORY.
THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN MEDIATOR-SHIP AND INTERCESSOR-SHIP IS A PURE FABRICATION. IT IS LIZ’S OWN IDEA. TO BE A MEDIATOR IS TO BE IN BETWEEN. THERE ARE DEGREES OF MEDIATION BUT TO PRAY FOR SOMEONE IS CLEARLY A FORM OF “IN-THE-MIDDLE-NESS” (AND YES, I MADE UP THAT PHRASE).
PRAY DOES NOT MEAN WORSHIP, IT MEANS TO ASK. PEOPLE FORGET THEIR OWN ENGLISH LANGUAGE OR NEVER LEARNED IT WELL IN THE FIRST PLACE. PRAY MEANS TO ASK. WE CAN ASK OTHERS TO PRAY FOR US. THIS ACCORDING TO CHRISTIANS FROM THE FIRST CENTURIES MEANT ALSO THE SAINTS IN GLORY WHO ARE NOT DEAD BUT VERY MUCH ALIVE. IDOLATRY IS THE WORSHIP OF OTHER GODS, NOT THE REQUEST OF SAINTS TO PRAY WITH AND FOR US. OTHERWISE IT WOULD BE IDOLATRY TO “PRAY” TO MY WIFE TO PRAY FOR ME.
At the moment of His death, the earth opened and many of the dead (about 500) were raised and went about the people; and the veil in the Holy of Holies was torn in two signifying the end of the time of The Law and beginning the period of Grace in which all who believed in Christ, submitting to His Lordship, had direct access to God the Father, hence why we pray “Our Father, Who art in Heaven….” Praying in this way acknowledges Jesus as the Mediator, the only Mediator. When we pray for one another (intercessor-ship), we pray in like manner, directly to the Father in the name of Jesus. There is no where in Scripture one can point to where we are directed to pray, or speak to a saint who has passed (saint comes from the word which means sanctified or made holy), and all who have submitted to the Lordship of Christ are in a continual state of advancing sanctification. That any saint would pass on an intercessory prayer to Jesus through Mary is not based on Biblical instruction. There is the story of the rich man and Lazarus, which testifies that those who have gone before us to heaven cannot communicate with those who are alive on earth:
“26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’” Luke 16.
IT IS SAD TO SEE SCRIPTURE MISUSED LIKE THE QUOTE FROM LUKE. WE ALL AGREE WE ARE PROGRESSING IN SANCTITY AS WE SUBMIT TO CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. CATHOLICS PRAY TO GOD, THROUGH THE SON, BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. THIS IS NOT WORSHIP, IT IS PRAYER. WE CAN ALSO PRAY TO PEOPLE AS YOU WILL SEE IN ANY BRITISH COURT THAT PRAYS TO COURT FOR LENIENCY. PRAY MEANS TO ASK. WE CAN ASK OTHERS TO PRAY FOR US. THE PROBLEM IS SOME PEOPLE THINK THE SAINTS ARE DEAD AND GONE AND CANNOT MAKE REQUESTS TO GOD FOR US. THIS IS WERE THE PROTESTANT IS SADLY IMPOVERISHED.
The only way saints can communicate with God is through Jesus who has the authority to cross that chasm. Mary does not have that authority…at least not anywhere in Scripture.
NO PERSON OTHER THAN JESUS HAS THE POWER TO BRIDGE THE GAP AS A MEDIATOR BETWEEN SINFUL MEN AND A HOLY GOD. BUT ONCE THAT HAS BEEN BRIDGED BY THE ONE MEDIATOR JESUS CHRIST, HE IMPLORES US TO JOIN HIM IN HIS MINISTRY OF MEDIATION. THUS MARY AND I CAN BOTH MEDIATE IN A SPECIAL THOUGH LIMITED WAY.
PROTESTANTS LOST A LOT WHEN THEY DECIDED TO PROTEST.
David August 8, 2009 at 1:32 AM
An important point missed: The issue that Mary and the Saints are not omniscient is mysteriously left out. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations and couldn’t possibly hear the prayers of millions of people?
I don’t think that’s true, if we look at Revelations, we see the Saints saying, “How long Lord?”
Revelation 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Apparently they were aware of events on earth. Otherwise, how would they know that their blood had not yet been avenged?
We also see Father Abraham, thousands of years after his death, having knowledge of the rich man’s (i.e. Dives) five brothers and their activities upon the earth.
We also see the reference to the cloud of Saints which surrounds us. Protestants deny that there is a reference to the Saints walking with us. But Scripture interprets Scripture. We can compare:
Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
and
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
It seems probable that the author, St. Paul, was clearly expressing that once we are baptized we walk amongst the saints in heaven. I believe this is the message that Jesus intended for us on the mount of Transfiguration when he, while still in the flesh, walked and talked with Moses and Elijah in the presence of Saints James, John and Peter.
Your Dad (on the other hand) doesn’t need to be omniscient because you can ask him face-to-face. Please take this well, but as a suggestion, you may wish to ask your Dad’s forgiveness as your response may have hurt him.
I’m not really sure what you mean by this.
Ok… We can agree that the Bible is the Word of God. Yes? If the Word of God is our rule-book (2 Tim 3:15-17), then where are we instructed to ask anyone in Heaven to pray for us? If this is important, then were the apostles mistaken by not mentioning the importance of asking someone in heaven to pray for us sinners?
The thing is that we need to understand the entire Bible. Doesn’t St. Paul say that he calls us all to pray for all mankind? Doesn’t Hebrews 12 say they were surrounded by a cloud of witnesses? Doesn’t Hebrews 12 also say that we walk amongst the Saints? Doesn’t the Bible say somewhere that those who live in Christ will never die? Doesn’t Scripture say that we are to imitate Christ?
If all these things are true, then at what point do we stop praying and interceding for all mankind? If we are still alive although we have died, what is stopping us from praying in obedience to the Lord’s will?
I respectfully submit that it is plainly clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for you. One has a strong Biblical basis, the other has no Biblical basis whatsoever.
The thing that Protestants forget is that Jesus Christ did not write the Bible. He didn’t write down anything at all. He taught his doctrines by word. Then he established the church and commanded the church teaches doctrines to the world. The Catholic Church is that church. And the Catholic Church wrote the New Testament based upon the doctrines of Jesus Christ.
The reason that Protestants can’t understand the teachings of Jesus Christ from Scripture is because they have discarded the traditions upon which the Scripture is based and denied the church which Jesus Christ established to teach his doctrines.
[Written in sincerity and love,
sincerely,
De Maria
Hey,
I have three very serious questions for the author (or anyone else who can answer it):
1. Where exactly does the Bible say that people from heaven can hear our prayers? That’s an assumption for which I’ve never heard an answer.
STEVE RAY HERE (IN CAPS TO DISTINGUISE) WHERE DOES IT SAY IN SCRIPTURE THEY CAN’T? WE DON’T UNDERSTAND THE “TECHNOLOGY” OF HEAVEN. WE SEE MOSES, THOUGH DEAD, DISCUSSING WITH JESUS ABOUT THINGS GOING ON ON THE EARTH. WE SEE ANGELS BRINGING GOLDEN BOWLS TO HEAVEN WHICH ARE THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS (IN REVELATION). ONE PERSON ASKED ME, “WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY WE SHOULD PRAY TO DEAD SAINTS?” I RESPONDED, “WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT SAINTS ARE DEAD?” THEY ARE VERY MUCH ALIVE AND KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON DOWN HERE. THEY CAN INTERCEDE FOR US.
2. Why do Catholics pray to Mary and not another person from heaven? Why don’t you pray to Joseph, Jesus’s earthly father, or to Moses, or to David, or to Jacob? Why specifically to Mary? Where in the Bible are we commanded or instructed or advised to pray to her?
WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY WE HAVE TO FIND EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE? THE VERY FACT THAT YOU BELIEVE THERE ARE 27 BOOKS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT AND THAT THEY ARE INSPIRED CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE. AND, WE DO PRAY (ASK TO INTERCEDE FOR US) TO THE OTHER SAINTS. THAT IS COMMON CATHOLIC TEACHING AND PRACTICE — AND DONE SO SINCE THE FIRST CENTURIES OF CHRISTIANITY. IT WAS ONLY DENIED IN THE RECENT FEW HUNDRED YEARS.
THE CATECHISM SAYS THE MEN OF OLD ARE ALSO SAINTS (PARAGRAPH 61) AND WE DO ASK THEM TO INTERCEDE FOR US. BUT MARY IS UNIQUE AND THE MODEL OF FAITH AND OBEDIENCE. SHE IS THE MOTHER OF GOD (THE DIVINE PERSON JESUS). A MOTHER ALWAYS HAS A UNIQUE RELATIONSHIP WITH HER SON.
3. Why shouldn’t we pray directly to God Himself? Do Catholics have the impression that we shouldn’t pray directly to God because He won’t heard us or because He doesn’t have time for us or because He’s intimidating? Hebrews 4:16 says that we have free access to the throne of God and can approach it with confidence.
WE DO PRAY DIRECTLY TO GOD. WHY DO YOU THINK CATHOLICS DON’T. IT IS CENTRAL TO OUR BELIEF AND PRACTICE. YOU SHOULD VISIT A MASS SOMETIME AND SEE WHO WE PRAY TO. MY FATHER ONCE SAID, “THERE IS ONLY ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN AND THAT IS JESUS – NOT ANY ONE ELSE.” I SAID TO MY FATHER, “DON’T EVER ASK ME TO PRAY FOR YOU AGAIN! WHEN YOU DO YOU ARE MAKING ME A MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND YOU — PRAY TO GOD ALONE AND NEVER ASK A PERSON TO MEDIATE FOR YOU.”
ANYWAY, THANKS FOR YOU HONEST QUESTIONS AND GOD BLESS YOU. I SUGGEST YOU VISIT http://WWW.CATHOLIC.COM AND READ THEIR TRACTS ON MARY.
Luke 4:8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'”
STEVE RAY HERE: Preach it sister! That is exactly what Catholics believe 🙂 And Mary is a perfect example and one who practiced it andcontributed in this life.
By the way I would suspect that you never even read my article, it might do you good 🙂
The Bible offers two words for two purposes: mesitis – mediator, 1Timothy 2:5, and iketevi – intercedes, Romans 8:26,27. The Bible interprets itself. All we need to do is allow It to do so.
STEVE RAY HERE: The Bible does NOT interpret itself as the mass confusion in Protestants amply proves. Jesus gave us an official interpreter which is the magisterium of the Catholic Church.
As for intercede and mediate, yes, there are two words but intercede means precisely to mediate! In this sense when we pray for someone else we are mediating.
Thank you for your wonderful defense of the one true church established by Jesus Christ. I too am a convert after wandering for 40 years in the wilderness of Protestantism.
“The Lord said to me: Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me, my heart would not be turned toward this people….” Jeremiah 15:1. Even the OT, spoken directly from God’s mouth, intimates that the dead can intercede for those on earth.
Chris Hankins November 7, 2009 at 7:12 PM
Respectfully, I am investigating Catholicism intently, as I never see myself entering the doors of another Protestant church,
May God bless you and bring you into the fullness of His Truth, in the Catholic Church.
but I would like to lovingly comment about the analogy between intercessory prayer to Mary and intercessory prayer made at someone else’s request, as is common of Protestants.
Ok.
The difference between the two is simple but profound: Catholics offer intercessory prayer directly to Mary, a Saint but non-deity.
Ok.
Protestants offer intercessory prayer to Jesus, the eternal Son of God, so it doesn’t matter to them who is saying the prayer.
That’s not true. It ceases to be intercessory prayer when you pray directly to Jesus. When you pray to Jesus, you pray directly to God. Because Jesus is God.
Let me explain.
When we pray to Mary, she prays for us to God.
When you pray to aunt Millie, she prays for you to God.
Those are two examples of intercessory prayer.
When Mary prays to God, for me, that is intercessory prayer.
When you pray to God for aunt Millie, that is intercessory prayer.
But it seems you’re having trouble believing that people on the other side of the grave can pray for us on this side of the grave. Let me show you something:
Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
That is Jesus depicting a DEAD MAN speaking to Lazarus. If you remember, Jesus did not say that this was a parable. He said, “19 There was a certain rich man….” That means that Jesus is narrating a true story.
This story reveals many things.
1. Dead men, in hell (v 23, an in hell he lift up his eyes….), can speak.
2. Dead men, in hell, can see what is going on, on earth.
3. Dead men, in hell, can pray for intercession on behalf of their brothers.
4. Dead men hell are under the impression that dead men in purgatory (i.e. the Bosom of Abraham) are fully capable of going into men’s houses and testifying (v. 27).
5. Finally, the story also reveals that dead men who are not in hell (Abraham and Lazarus) and not even in heaven, yet, are seemingly, very much alive, self aware and aware of things upon earth.
So, if dead men in hell and dead men who were not in hell, but not yet in heaven, could do so much talking and living before the Crucifixion. Before the Holy Spirit was given. How much more after, when we are now come unto Mount Sion, where we are surrounded by clouds of Witnesses? (See Heb 12).
One is praying to Mary, the other to Jesus. That’s where Protestants have their hang-ups. Thank you.
That’s because they know, neither Scripture nor the power of God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I know, Steve’s already responded to this one. But, I’ve got some unexpected extra time on my hands (laid off unexpectedly). I’m pretty sure I’ll be back to work pretty soon, but please keep me in your prayers, none the less.
Anyway, just to kill this extra time, please indulge me as I also respond.
Daniel June 23, 2014 at 9:23 AM
Hey,
I have three very serious questions for the author (or anyone else who can answer it):
ok.
1. Where exactly does the Bible say that people from heaven can hear our prayers?
I hate to answer a question with a question, but please bear with me. Do you believe in the Trinity? I’m assuming that you do. Where does the Bible say that there is a Trinity? Plain and simple, it doesn’t. The Teaching is taught explicitly in Sacred Tradition and is only implied in the Bible.
The same here. The Catholic Church teaches that the Saints can hear our prayers. But this Teaching is only implied in the Bible from those verses which Steve mentioned.
That’s an assumption for which I’ve never heard an answer.
Assumption? No. Yours is the assumption. And it is false. You assume that Jesus wrote a Bible and handed it out. Or that the Apostles wrote the New Testament before they began to preach. But that is false.
The fact is that Jesus established the Church. He then commissioned the Church to Teach all which He commanded.
It is based upon these Teachings that the Catholic Church wrote the New Testament.
2. Why do Catholics pray to Mary
Because she is the Mother of God and therefore has a great deal of influence in heaven.
and not another person from heaven? Why don’t you pray to Joseph, Jesus’s earthly father, or to Moses, or to David, or to Jacob?
We pray to all the Saints and Angels.
Why specifically to Mary? Where in the Bible are we commanded or instructed or advised to pray to her? –
That is explicitly taught in Sacred Tradition. And indirectly taught by Scripture. Here’s the logic. Jesus is Mary’s Son. Therefore, He asked (i.e. prayed) her for all things which He needed in order to survive as an infant. Therefore, since He is our example (1 Cor 11:1), we also pray to her for our needs.
3. Why shouldn’t we pray directly to God Himself?
We pray directly to God, as well. However, we pray to the Saints because they are the quintessential “righteous men”, to whom God listens:
Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath. 8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept:
James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. 17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
I personally think that St. James is there advising that we should pray to the Saints, as St. Elijah was already dead and buried. But most people think I’m stretching that one.
No need to respond to the rest of your questions, as your premise for them has been disproved.
Sincerely,
De Maria
There are a few notions that might be helpful to this discussion. When Jesus says, “I am the light of the world” and also says of his disciples, “You are the light of the world,” it is not a contradiction nor are his disciples lights in an independent way. Inasmuch as they can say, I live now not I, but Christ lives in me” they participate in Christ, who is the light in a unique way. This is also why Christ said “He who hears you, hears me,” and why he could call Peter “rock” when traditionally this title is given to God. It all boils down to a participation. By calling his mother “woman” (the original name of the sinless virgin Eve) at Cana and at the crucifixion, Jesus indicates that his mother is a replacement in the new creation, and as Eve was the life-giver, Mary replaces her in the supernatural order, though Eve remains our mother in the natural order. As a true mother, Mary has all the knowledge and qualities to exercise her role as the New Eve. Her supernatural role and all her graces flow from the salvation Christ obtained when he died on the cross, an event that is transhistorical since he is an eternal divine person. That is why the ancient Christians prayed the sub tuum presidium (under you protection) prayer to her already in the third century (documented) and no doubt before that. As for praying to saints in general, Jesus speaks with approval of the rich man in hell pleading with Abraham (not directly to God) on behalf of his brothers. No doubt, it would be worth-while to see if there are other examples of Jewish prayers to the saints around the time of Christ as indicators of the Jewish spirituality of that time of which the early Church was a part.
Granting, for the sake of argument, your statement pasted below. Where the rubber meets the road, your argument doesnt line with reality. In Mexico, I have spoken with people that are ostracized by their extended family if they choose not to have/ display a statue of Mary. They are severely chastened. this is in no way an isolated example
” Paul says, “Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God” (2 Cor 5:20). (Opps, to the right is a Pentecostal preacher Kenneth Copeland acting as a mediator, interceding with God, standing in the middle as they pray for this man!) I hope that helps explain why we call Mary a mediatrix and why all of us are mini-mediators sharing in the ministry of Christ — the one-and-only mediator of the New Covenant, but certainly not in any way claiming to be the one mediator of the New Covenant, nor in any way arrogating to ourselves or to Mary the unique prerogatives and ministry of Jesus.”
Greg Hogan: What does the anecdote in your first paragraph have to do with anything the Catholic Church teaches or anything in Steve's post?
Bill912: Mexico is culturally Catholic. What I posted is the rule in Mexico, not the exception. On boards like this, people like you and Steve parse the rules. Mexicans dont care about that. That which is taught and believed in Mexico has no connection to your parsing. You are telling people that are not Catholic what you believe. Mexican Catholics by the millions dont believe what you believe.
So, what does ANY of that false teaching, which is certainly NOT a rule, have to do with what the Catholic Church teaches or what Steve posted?
So, some Mexicans have been poorly cathechized. That would be true of people of any religion in any country in the world.
Bill912:
Well, couple of things come to mind.
One, why bother trying to straighten out people who are not Catholic when an entire nation of Catholics doesnt get it?
“An entire nation of Catholics doesn’t get it?” And your evidence that this is so (as opposed to a small number of people) is what, exactly? What are the numbers? And how do you know?
I am not here to argue. I am thinking out loud. I dont expect to change minds here.
My evidence is partly from reading what Catholics that grew up in Mexico have written, partly anecdotal evidence from conversations with the locals in Mexico.
I have traveled to various parts of the world and have visited nearly a thousand people in their homes in various countries. Because of my interest in religious practices, I specifically focus on that topic. Indonesia (Muslim), Thailand (Buddhist), Mexico (Catholic) as examples. Patterns within each of those cultures repeat. In Mexico, every Catholic home, and most businesses, that I visited in Mexico had a prominent image of Guadalupe. Without fail. Usually several. Almost never an image of Jesus. The prevailing sentiment I picked up on through reading and personal experience, is that if you dont agree that Mary is the source of all blessing and provision, you are being disrespectful of Mary. That disagreement is not taken lightly.
I have been visiting Catholic churches and often hear prayers asking for Mary to save us, protect us, surround us with your presence, have mercy upon us pour out God's blessings of mercy and grace, etc. Such terms sound to inquiring protestant ears like more than simply asking for Mary's intercession. Are such requests from Mary acceptable?
STEVE RAY HERE:
Barry, always nice to hear from honest people with honest questions. Catholics love Mary because she is the mother of Our Lord and we understand that as his mother it gives her special prerogatives. As the kings of the OT always had their mothers seated at their right hand as Queen Mothers e.g., 1 Kings 2:19), that is how we view Mary. Jesus is the great King of Israel and the Universe and as any King of Israel who always had their mother as queen at their right hand to intercede for the people of the kingdom, so we have it with Jesus Christ.
Wish I had more time to respond right now but I don’t. Hopefully this article I wrote may help: https://www.catholicconvert.com/wp-content/uploads/MaryAndWorship.pdf
Great explanation !
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