An Eastern Orthodox Christian wrote to complain about, or to see how we Catholics explain the Immaculate Conception. He said he had asked many Catholics and none could answer. I find that hard to believe.
After I answered his long and slightly edgy e-mail, I received his response – “Thanks.”
Picture One: Statue of Mary in Nazareth entitled “Mary of Nazareth” which is one of my favorites! Second picture is me falling in the mud in our documentary “Mary, Mother of God” when I explained the Immaculate Conception.
Here are the Eastern Orthodoxes two questions, and my simple answers:
Why were God and the angels “holding their collective breaths” (as the Basilica of the Annunciation notes in Nazareth) if they knew that she was going to have to say “Yes”, because she could not deny God’s will, which would have been a sin?
MY RESPONSE: REMEMBER THAT THE FIRST EVE WAS ALSO “CONCEIVED IMMACULATELY” — SHE WAS SINLESS, WITHOUT THE STAIN OF ORIGINAL SIN OR ANY ACTUAL SIN.
YET, SHE WAS ABLE TO CHOSE SIN. MARY, THE 2ND EVE COULD ALSO HAVE SAID NO TO GOD AND SINNED, JUST LIKE THE FIRST “IMMACULATELY CONCEIVED” EVE. THAT IS WHY MARY IS SO SPECIAL —- SHE RESISTED SIN LIKE THE FIRST EVE DIDN’T DO. EVE TIED THE KNOT OF SIN; MARY UNTIED IT.
HIS QUESTION: By declaring the Immaculate Conception, suddenly, Mary the Mother of God became very unlike us; her purity became unachievable for us mere mortals born with “original sin”; and she became a model of Godliness that we can never achieve on earth. The best human example of humility and obedience that Christians had been able to strive towards for 1,800 years was taken away and transformed into a something different, something suprahuman.
BEING IMMACULATELY CONCEIVED DID NOT MAKE HER SUPERHUMAN; RATHER IT MAKES HER TRULY HUMAN IN THE FULL SENSE OF THE WORD, A MODEL FOR US ALL TO STRIVE FOR.
SHE NEEDED A SAVIOR (“MY SPIRIT REJOICES IN GOD MY SAVIOR”) LIKE WE DO BUT FOR HE PREVENTED HER FROM FALLING INTO THE MUD WHEREAS WE’VE ALL BEEN SAVED BY BEING PULLED OUT AND CLEANED UP.
EVEN THE ORTHODOX REFER TO MARY AS THE ALL HOLY ONE. IT IS REALLY THE SAME THING, JUST CATHOLICS GAVE IT A FORMAL DEFINITION.
HOPE THAT HELPS. HAPPY EASTER.
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When people are unable to grasp the Marian Dogmas, it usually stems from a superficial knowledge of the deposit of faith. This is not the case for those who do fully comprehend them and disagree, but those who react by scratching their heads and suggesting that they are incompatible with Christianity have yet to wade into the deep end of the pool, so to speak. From my experience, it comes from an unintentional, but inappropriate separation of the Old and New Testaments and reading scripture strictly verse by verse without reference to the overarching truths of salvation history.
This is a problem when it comes to the issue of justification as well. For example, many Christans read Romans and Galatians like a Catholic vs. Protestant issue rather than what it really is, a Jew vs. Gentile argument. This knocks the train off the tracks before it even leaves the station and results some very dangerous teachings such as “once saved always saved.”
I am not claiming that these people do not know scripture, only that they approach it with presuppositions that hinder a a proper understanding and result in instances of bad theology.
STEVE RAY HERE: BRILLIANTLY STATED BRIAN. THANKS FOR YOUR INSITEFUL COMMENT!
Most Orthodox Christians claim that the Holy Blessed Theotokos was redeemed at the Annunciation when the Word became flesh. So, for them it’s not a matter of “if” but “when.” We say at her conception they say at the Annunciation.
Also, remember that Satan and the devils were created pure and had much more in terms of wisdom and grace and yet they still fell.
They are our separated brethren but Orthodox can be very annoying. Their pride gets the better of them. Not referring to the guy who asked the question mainly but Orthodoxy as a whole. They seem to have a chip on their shoulder with regards to the Catholic Church. They are like a smaller brother who has too compete with the older and in many cases while he agrees with the brother, will assert his authority and independence in disproportion to the authority given to the older brother by the Father. What I’m trying to say is that Orthodox are like people from the country who are jealous or insecure of folk from the city so they have to assert themselves or begrudge city folk at every turn. Not always this way but it seems like this a lot.
Vic — You have not been Eastern, so you don’t know the rest of the story. If the Orthodox have a chip on their shoulder, the Roman Catholics are about as arrogant as they come when it comes to other forms of the Catholic faith. Remember, Catholic means “universal” or “the fullness of”, NOT ROMAN. For three quarters of the last century, we in the Ruthenian Catholic Church had to put up with an incredible amount of meddling from Roman bishops and arrogant Latins who viewed our church with disdain because we were not Latin and didn’t do things in the Latin way. Does the name Biship Ireland and Fr. Alexis Toth mean anything to you at all? If not, look it up.
Don’t point your finger at the Orthodox as if the Roman church has not had its share of pride and arrogance in dealing with people and cultures they don’t understand. If you still don’t “get it”, Google THE SACK OF CONSTANTINOPLE. Maybe that will enlighten you.
Edward;
Most Catholics are not even aware of the Orthodox. Orthodox, on the other hand, suffer from a very accute case of inferiority. You guys always bring up the sack of Contantinople. Get over it. The Pope never orderd that and the lost control of those armies long before it happened. In fact (look it up Edward) the pope forbid the Crusaders to attack Byzantium or be excommunicated. I also recommend you look up all the lesser know atrocities from the Orthodox on the latins like in 1182 or in 1171 where thousands of Venetians were killed with the Byzantine government. Sin goes both ways. Get over it because we have. Look it up!!!
Really, it all stems from different apostolic traditions: Or rather, it stems from Augustine.
Augustine was the first to introduce the “Stain” and guilt of original sin.
The Catholic and Orthodox east has no such notion of sin. Rather, our mortality, our loss of divine grace, our fear of death, as the scripture says, give birth to sin. Some call this pelagianism, the Orthodox call it apostolic tradition, as it RIGHTLY IS.
In other words, because we are MORTAL, we sin. The remdy AGAINST sin is immortality, i.e. Divine life. That is what God’s grace is. God is life, and when we participate in his divine energies, which are HIMSELF in action in the world, when we participate in HIM, we are made immortal, by grace. We are made partakers of the divine nature, and divinized, we are aflame with God. There is the closest possible union that begins to be formed and which can come to an amazing degree of fruition (Just look at the monks of Athos and St. Symeon the new Theologian!)
Now, here is the problem, The Panagia (All-Holy one) Theotokos (God-Bearing-One) Died.
This means she was mortal. Being mortal, she was subject to the effects of sin, but this does NOT mean she EVER DID sin. Most Orthodox believe she never did.
The problem is, the Orthodox do not consider there to be any such a thing as Marian dogma. No new dogmas can be created, EVER. Ecumenical councils create AXIOMS to give clarity to dogmas that ALREADY EXIST. The IMMACULATE CONCEPTION is an innovation, not because it is necessarily false (It is consistent from a western theological standpoint), but because it has no business being dogmatized.
How can anything regarding Mary be a dogma? Dogmas are necessary truths to religious experience. Are you going to tell me it was necessary for first century and second century Christians to confess the All-Holy one’s “immaculate conception” before she had even died or before it had ever been REVEALED to her? That is ludicrous. The truth about Mary is truth indeed, but does NOT belong to the level of Dogma, because MARY belongs to those who are ALREADY within the church. She is a mystery to be cherished, not a DOGMA to be made a requirement to salvation!
Oh, and before I get told off by the council of Ephesus, let me remind you that the Dogma of Mary as Theotokos is a Christolgical dogma, not a Marian one.
Oh, and all this theology that the Roman Catholics hate, yeah, that’s approved by the Pope, especially when he tells the Eastern Catholics to go deeper into their Orthodox roots. This is the faith of the fathers, this is the faith that sustains the world.
BRavo Holy Father, Bravo.
Since Mother Mary was to be the mother of our Savior, she had to be free from sin, she had to be pure. God cannot simply put the Christ Child to be conceived in a “dirty” womb. That Mother Mary was born free of sin is something that the early Christians have always believed. It was just later on defined by the Catholic Dogma on Immaculate Conception when there was the need to define it. Dogmas are not additions, but merely definitions of things that the early Church have always believed in.
Since Mother Mary was to be the mother of our Savior, she had to be free from sin, she had to be pure. God cannot simply put the Christ Child to be conceived in a “dirty” womb. That Mother Mary was born free of sin is something that the early Christians have always believed. It was just later on defined by the Catholic Dogma on Immaculate Concepcion when there was the need to define it. Dogmas are not additions, but merely definitions of things that the early Church have always believed in.
From what I have been reading, the Orthodox do not believe in the Immaculate Conception because they believe it was not needed. Their take on original sin is a little different. Their honor for Mary, however, is equal or greater than the Roman Church. She is mentioned in the Liturgy multiple times and more than the Roman Litrugy. I have been attending an Eastern Catholic Church and actually like their Rites better than the Latin Rite. It is older and has more Tradition. The Byzantine Liturgy is currently the oldest that is still in use. There are however, a group of Orthodox that are very anti-Catholic. Someone told me it is basically Orthodox or die and has been pushed by the monks of Mount Athos in Greece. To keep the record straight, Rome has tried to bully the Eastern Churches and not sure what that is about. They still have not learned that unity does not necessarily mean uniformity.
Unity is inter-communion, not submission. Period. Unity in Faith, Morals and Worship. Nothing else is needed, so the fathers taught.
I find it intriguing that in St. Augustine’s 80 chapter work on the Unity of the Church against the Donatists, he never ONCE mentions the necessity of submission to Rome as the guarantee of orthodoxy.
Not once.
I am a Southern Baptist who has a lot of respect for the Catholic faith. The Immaculate Conception is a hard concept for me. Does it also include the belief that Mary never sinned? How does that pass muster with Rom. 3:23 “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God?” It seems like Paul would have noted the one exception here in Mary if that were the case.
From my limited studies, I think Catholics have a very good argument on their position regarding the Eucharist. But wasn’t it several centuries before this concept of Mary arose in the Church?
Dear Brent Craig:
Well when we look at Romans 3:23, we realize that it is about humanity in general. Take a look at Hebrews 9:27 — “And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgment…” Yet we have several exceptions in the Bible : Enoch and Elijah were carried away to Heaven without dying; and what about Lazarus or those who were resurrected when Christ died (Matt. 27:52-53) or anyone either Jesus or any of the disciples had resurrected? They died more than once.
Or Psalm 53:1-3 states that “there is none that does good” and in Luke 18:19 Jesus says, “No one is good but God alone.” yet then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says “The good man out of his good treasure…” So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good. See also Matthew 1:20, Luke 23:50 and Acts 11:22-24.
We must also remember that Mary is compared to the Ark of the Covenant in Scripture. I have never known a Protestant who noticed this — read Luke 1:39-56 / 2 Sam. 6:2-11; see also Revelation 11:9-12:1 where the Ark is seen after 600 years and what we see is the description of a “woman” who is seems to embody Israel or daughter of Zion (since the Messiah comes from Israel) and the Church (since all those who follow the commandments of Jesus are considered her children).
The evidence is strengthened when we think about whom Mary carried in her womb and what the Ark of the Covenant contained (which Christ embodied and fulfilled).
And then there is the holiness of the Ark: In Exodus 25:11-21 we read that the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God’s Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.; 2 Sam. 6:7 (1 Chron. 13:9-10) – the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, even with the best of intentions, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb. God prepared her body in advance for this great calling.
Other Scriptures always used to show Mary’s Immaculate Conception were Wisdom 1:4 : “For into a malicious soul wisdom shall not enter; nor dwell in the body that is subject unto sin…” (cf. Ef. 1,6-7 ; Col. 3,16). For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin.
Other Marian types in the OT are detailed here FYI: http://campus.udayton.edu/mary//meditations/advc01.html
For these reasons, and others (how Mary, when the Holy Spirit overshadowed her, entered into a marital covenant with God, and thus was “off limits” for any sexual contact with Joseph — which is another topic of reading but I’d suggest you read http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/talmud.htm which explains celibacy in the OT to also see how Mary and Joseph remained a chaste relationship) we believe that Mary was preserved from birth.
I never understand why some Orthodox (many Orthodox *do* believe in Immaculate Conception but do not use such a term) object to this dogma as they believe Mary never sinned was ever-virgin. Strange.
Irenaeus of Lyon (disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle John) and Justin Martyr (who probably learned from people who had known Peter and/or Paul in Rome) speak much of Mary as the “new Eve” and as Stephen Ray mentioned, Eve too was conceived without sin.
God took Eve from the flesh (rib) of Adam and from Mary’s flesh sprang the new Adam (cf. 1 Corinthians 15:45).
God bless,
TIMOTHÉE
Steve, He has a point in that we ate not the same since we have concupiscence.
Neither did Eve.
Which ones?
He didn’t write about it in the Donatist because he wrote about it elsewhere:
For not without cause among all the Apostles doth Peter sustain the person of this Church Catholic; for unto this Church were the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven given, when they were given unto Peter: and when it is said unto him, it is said unto all, Lovest thou Me? Feed My sheep. Therefore the Church Catholic ought willingly to pardon her sons, upon their amendment, and confirmation in godliness; when we see that Peter himself, bearing her person, . . . had pardon granted unto him . . . (On the Christian Conflict, 32)
. . . Peter is the Church Herself. (Exposition on the Psalms, 94:18 [94, 17] )
. . . some things are said which seem peculiarly to apply to the Apostle Peter, and yet are not clear in their meaning, unless when referred to the Church, whom he is acknowledged to have figuratively represented, on account of the primacy which he bore among the Disciples; as it is written, “I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,” [Matthew 16:19] and other passages of the like purport . . . (Exposition on the Psalms, [109, 1] )
. . . Peter, in whom was the type of the Church . . . (Exposition on the Psalms, 119:43 [119, 44] )
No, it doesn’t. It stems from rebellion in the Orthodox. They rebelled against the Church of Christ.
That was first taught in Genesis and St. Paul elaborated upon that in Romans:
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
The Catholic east does. The Orthodox do also, but don’t give it a name. They, rightly, understand that they don’t have the wherewithal to develop Doctrine. The Holy Spirit doesn’t guide them in that way, nor any other denomination which has rebelled against the Mother Church, for obvious reasons.
I think you’ve got your heresies mixed up.
And, Original Sin, is Apostolic Tradition.
That which you have expounded is Catholic Doctrine.
St. Catherine of Siena had God say: “They are like the burning coal that no one can put out once it is completely consumed in the furnace, because it has itself been turned into fire. So it is with these souls cast into the furnace of my charity, who keep nothing at all, not a bit of their own will, outside of me but are completely set afire in me. There is no one who can seize them or drag them out of my grace. They have been made one with me and I with them.”[Primary 20]
St. John of the Cross, OCD wrote: “In thus allowing God to work in it, the soul … is at once illumined and transformed in God, and God communicates to it His supernatural Being, in such wise that it appears to be God Himself, and has all that God Himself has. And this union comes to pass when God grants the soul this supernatural favour, that all the things of God and the soul are one in participant transformation; and the soul seems to be God rather than a soul, and is indeed God by participation; although it is true that its natural being, though thus transformed, is as distinct from the Being of God as it was before.”[Primary 21]
Nope. God said to the Serpent:
Genesis 3:15King James Version (KJV)
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
The Woman, Mary, is She who is in reference here. Because the Woman, Eve, has already cooperated with Satan. But the Woman, Mary, will never cooperate with Satan, will never feel the effects of sin, because she is conceived with a deep hatred of Satan and a deeper love of God.
She never did sin. Any Orthodox who believe that she sinned, themselves sin, because they are blaspheming the Theotokos, the Mother of God.
The Orthodox have no authority to develop Doctrine or Dogma. But the Catholic Church is She to whom Christ gave the authority to “bind on earth and bind in heaven and loose on earth and loose in heaven” (Matt 16:18-19).
A dogma is a truth revealed by God. The Catholic Encyclopedia says:
But according to a long-standing usage a dogma is now understood to be a truth appertaining to faith or morals, revealed by God, transmitted from the Apostles in the Scriptures or by tradition, and proposed by the Church for the acceptance of the faithful. It might be described briefly as a revealed truth defined by the Church — but private revelations do not constitute dogmas, and some theologians confine the word defined to doctrines solemnly defined by the pope or by a general council, while a revealed truth becomes a dogma even when proposed by the Church through her ordinary magisterium or teaching office. A dogma therefore implies a twofold relation: to Divine revelation and to the authoritative teaching of the Church.
That sentence doesn’t make sense.
That’s a straw man argument.
The entire Deposit of Faith was given by Christ to His Disciples. Then the Holy Spirit led them into a fuller understanding of that deposit. The Marian Doctrines had not been considered in the first and second century. But when the Church began to develop the Doctrines and Teach them, it became necessary for the faithful to believe them. Because the Catholic Church is the voice of God in this world. Rejecting the Teaching of the Catholic Church is to reject God who speaks through Her.
Ephesians 3:10King James Version (KJV)
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
God, speaking through the Church, says that her Dogmas are to be accepted and believed by all as a means glorifying God who is the Author of her wonderful gifts:
Luke 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
All Marian Dogmas are theological.
Catholics don’t hate Orthodox doctrine. They have none that is strictly their own. All which they have is from the Catholic Church. Their doctrines are under developed.
Neither the Catholic Church nor the Pope, teach that you have to be Catholic to be saved. Listen to what the Pope is saying and you’ll find that he is thoroughly Catholic.
Amen! What a gift to the Church! Thanks be to God for our Holy Father!
That should say, “all Marian Dogmas are Christological”.
I meant to say that “all Marian Doctrine is Christocentric”.
Lol! Ok. So now I said it twice. I guess that’s cause I really mean it.
From the discussions I’ve had with our EO brethren, I understand that they reject the dogma of the Immaculate Conception because for them it is heretical. They believe that Adam and Eve were inclined to sin out of pride and concupisence when they fell from God’s grace. The Catholic dogma of Original Sin and the Fall does not contain that notion, but rather the contrary: Adam and Eve were created perfect; they weren’t subjected to concupiscence or affected by dark desires; nor were they ignornant of what true happiness essentially was, that being life with God; and, of course, they were created in the state of sanctifying grace. Now the EO don’t believe that we have inherited the original guilt as Catholics and Protestants do. They reject the Protestant notion of Adam’s personal sin being imputed to us and the Catholic idea of guilt by association. What we have inherited, though, is what they call the ancestral sin: the inclination to sin out of pride and concupiscence. Baptism cleanses us of this ancestral sin, albeit whether we are in fact guilty in any way. Ironically, the Catechism of the EO Church states that all of us are “charged” with “the sins of our first parents”. That’s quite a strong verb to apply to people who aren’t guilty to any extent. Anyway, the EO I have conversed with in theological discussions claimed that Jesus himself was inclined to sin out of pride and concupisence. (I think of Adam and Eve as simply having been gullible to the suggestions of the tempter instead of proud in their total innocence.) But because he managed to resist what we Catholics regard as the effects of original sin and never disobeyed God, he restored our human nature in his own body and soul. And because Jesus did, we can now strive to attain this same union in our lives by being incorporated in him through baptism. Hence, the EO believe that Mary was just as much inclined to sin as Jesus was, although she never sinned. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception holds that Mary was also exempted from inheriting the effects of original sin. If Jesus had a fallen nature which made him susceptible to sin, then Mary must have, too. To believe otherwise amounts to heresy. The EO believe that Mary attained her union with the Divine at the precise moment she conceived Jesus. This was her baptism, so to speak. But I find it odd in light of what the angel said to Mary before she conceived Jesus in Luke 1:30: “Fear not for you have found favour with God.” I’m reminded of what John writes in his First Epistle – that fear has to do with punishment. Isaiah describes a restored Israel as being “clothed in a mantle of justice”. Seeing that Luke draws a parallel between Mary and Daughter Zion in her Canticle of Praise, I can’t help but think that Isaiah’s prophecy finds its secondary fulfillment in the Immaculate Conception. Once the EO dismiss the idea that human perfection is something to be attained rather than restored in and through Christ, they’ll be in a much better position to understand the significance of the Immaculate Conception. The only reason that God restored fallen Israel (looked upon the lowliness of His handmaid and spouse) was that she was chosen to bring forth the Messiah. Mary was redeemed, however, in the most perfect way – by being kept from falling – out of fittingness and not by necessity on account of whose mother she was chosen to be.
I’m trying to figure out why the dogmatic teaching about the Immaculate Conception is a problem for the Orthodox. Apparently St. Thomas Aquinas didn’t believe in it. During his time some influential Orthodox thinkers rejected St. Thomas Aquinas on that specific point. A few hundred years later, when Pope St. Pius IX defines the Immaculate Conception as dogma, the Orthodox reject the opposite. It almost seems like they just want to be contrary. We know St. John the Baptist was sanctified in the womb. Apparently God felt that this honor was necessary because of his important mission as forerunner of the Christ. Since Our Lady’s mission — giving flesh to God — was so much more important, why wouldn’t she get the even higher honor of being sanctified at the time of conception? Fortunately as a Catholic I don’t have to worry about any of this. It has been defined once and for all and it is dogma (and it is a part of the dogma of Christ). Protestants and Orthodox still have to worry about this issue.
if you are going to make your own mother, what would she be like?????
A side note on Eastern/Western Theology and Discipline: When two organization split from one organization, methods and philosophies change. In the case of the Orthodox, some rather different beliefs have cropped up. Usually in a split, both parties bare some responsibility. Without assigning any fault directly to either party about what took place over a millenia ago, it seems quite apparent that most of the responsibility for the continued separation lies with the Eastern Churches. Despite repeated efforts by Rome, especially beginning with Pope John XXIII, the Orthodox Churches, especially the National Churches, have refused to commit to a serious effort to heal the breach. Obviously part of the reason is the too close relationship with national governments, the Serbian and Russian situations being the most egregious. The other serious block has been the nursing of ancient grudges, some founded and some not. Considering the condition of the world today and where it is headed, one would think it past time to bury the past and move forward as a one Christian Church.
STEVE RAY HERE: Very well said.
Hi Steve,
I’m a Catholic and trying to get a Baptist couple to convert, but its difficult because they are stubborn couple.
1. Catholic infant baptism – Jesus was baptized as an adult fully immersed in the river Jordan.
2. Speaking in Tongues – they jabber words which I don’t understand – one is supposed to understand when praying in tongues. Fr, Chad Ripperger warns about demon possession.
3. Confession – we confess to Jesus Himself not to a priest.
4. Mary is dead – She can’t interceded for us.
5. Pope – is just a man and he is sinful how can he be infallible.
I have read your book “Crossing the Tiber” and bought them a copy too. Also I gave them “101 question & answers to Catholic faith” which I asked the priest to bless it.
I’ve praying for there conversion and asking Our Lady of Sorrows and Pe. Pio to intervene, but it’s a long haul and painful to see how they extrapolate God’s word and don’t know how to interpret it.
I’ve watched your videos and love them all.
I was wondering since you came from a Baptist background if you could send then an email by answering the question above. I have tried but my knowledge of Bible history is limited.
I really would like this couple to know the truth for I know they are seeking it but they are out there one of those dingy boats and don’t know where the ship is.
His name is Paul Stupkin and his email address is: paulstupkin@outlook.com. I’m sure you can help this couple come back to the big ship.
If you send him an email say its on behalf of a friend but please don’t mention my name as I want to remain anonymous.
Thank you Steve for telling the truth.
Best regards,
Elisabeth Viegas
May God bless you and
I’m a Catholic and trying to get a Baptist couple to convert, but its difficult because they are stubborn couple.
1. Catholic infant baptism – Jesus was baptized as an adult fully immersed in the river Jordan.
Of course Jesus was baptized as an adult! There was no John the Baptist and water baptism when he was an infant. Jews were circumcized on the 8th day and baptism replaces circumcision in the New Covenant. So NO ONE was baptized infant OR adult prior to John. And we are to told that Jesus was completely immersed. It said he went down into the water but how deep he went. My kids were afraid of water and the first time they went into the water it was up to their ankles. They say full immersion because baptism can mean to dip, but also their Fundamentalist “tradition” tells them that so they read it into the Bible. I wonder if the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 was fully immersed out in the desert?
2. Speaking in Tongues – they jabber words which I don’t understand – one is supposed to understand when praying in tongues. Fr, Chad Ripperger warns about demon possession.
Yes, I understand. They either have the real gift of tongues which is rare, or they learned to say, “Yabba dabba do” over and over again and call it tongues. I have seen genuine, fake-made up and demonic.
3. Confession – we confess to Jesus Himself not to a priest.
We can also confess to God directly but for very serious mortal sins we go to a priest who represents the Church. Read John 20:20-23. No way to explain this without priestly confession.
4. Mary is dead – She can’t interceded for us.
“So our tradition tells us so….” One cannot prove one way or another from Scripture alone, but this is a long issue and we are definitely correct. John saw her in heaven in Revelation 12:1, but they will say she is symbolic and not literal, but the chapter demonstrates that she is read but they have Fundamentalist tradition blinders on and cannot see.
5. Pope – is just a man and he is sinful how can he be infallible.
Fallibility has nothing to do with sinlessness. This shows how foolish they are and they don’t even understand what we mean by infallible.
I have read your book “Crossing the Tiber” and bought them a copy too. Also I gave them “101 question & answers to Catholic faith” which I asked the priest to bless it.
God for you. If he reads Crossing the Tiber honestly, it will serious rattle their cages.
WHY HAVE YOU SHOUTED YOUR RESPONSE, AND WHISPERED HIS ?
STEVE RAY HERE: isn’t it amazing how people jump to conclusions. I’m not shouting at anyone nor making anyone else whisper. This was a technique to make his text distinct from mine. It’s a simple as that.
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