“Bible Christians”
(a misnomer, since Catholics are the real and original Bible Christians), based on their recently devised “Reformation” principle of sola Scriptura, study the Bible with the following premises:
1. There is no binding authority but the Bible alone;
2. There is no official binding interpretation or interpreter; each person ultimately is their own pope;
3. The Bible is perspicuous (i.e., easy to understand) and it can be interpreted and understood by anyone.
4. An individual can/should read the Bible and interpret the Bible for themselves.
Catholics have a different set of premises that direct their study of the Bible.
1. The authority of the Apostles and the Church preceded the Bible and the Sacred Tradition of the Church is an equally infallible authority (2 Thes 2:15; CCC 80-83). The Bible is part of the Apostolic Tradition.
2. The authoritative interpretation of the Bible is the prerogative of the Catholic Church (1 Tim 3:15; Mt 18:17; CCC 85-88).
3. The Bible is not always easy to understand (2 Pet 3:15-16) and needs to understood within its historical and contextual framework and interpreted within the community to which it belongs.
4. Individuals can/should read the Bible and interpret the Bible for themselves—but within the framework of the Church’s authoritative teaching and not based on their own “private interpretation” (2 Pet 1:20-21).
These basic differences place the Catholic and Protestant worlds apart even though they are opening the pages of the same book and accepting it as an authoritative revelation from God. The Catholic position is biblical, and has been espoused from the first days of the Church. The Protestant position is unbiblical (assumed from their newly devised tradition) and is of recent origin. The Catholic is in full continuity with historical Christianity; Protestants are in discontinuity.
For the best Catholic Bible software, visit www.Verbum.com/SteveRay
My article “Bible Study: Playground or Minefield? Why We Need the Church”
My article: “How to Start a Parish Bible Study”
This Post Has 23 Comments
Excellent and very helpful article that pretty much sums it all up. Can I put that on my homepage?
Thanks in advance!
Greetings from Munich, Germany
Robert
Please feel free to post on your website with link to mine. God bless!
Unless they are someone like Jimmy Swaggart who think they have the authority to determine who is qualified or not to even interpret the Bible and or whom hold for themselves to be authoritative on Scripture. But that a secret, shhhh…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC0gm-BnGPg
“Tom, you don’t even know enough about it [the bible] to discuss it.” -Jimmy Swaggart on Crossfire 1984.
Nice article Mr. Steve!
What. Utter. NONSENSE.
James DeRuvo OK let’s break it down … shall we?
1. There is no binding authority but the Bible alone; You talk like that’s a bad thing.
2. There is no official binding interpretation or interpreter; each person ultimately is their own pope. What. Utter. NONSENSE! I have never read anything so bigoted about Protestants in my life. Seriously, Rhonda. First off, Protestants don’t have a Pope. We have a personal relationship with Christ. And when he said “I will send you a Helper.” WE BELIEVE HIM. Our interpretation is from the Holy Spirit, which must be confirmed BY SCRIPTURE, and scholarly Christians also look at commentaries, talk to their Pastors, and fellow bible believing Christians. So say otherwise is disengenuous at best, and perjorative at worse.
3. The Bible is perspicuous (i.e., easy to understand) and it can be interpreted and understood by anyone. Another NONSENSICAL statement designed to demonize Protestants. A protestant believes that the bible must be STUDIED. We must find out what the therefore is There for. We must pray over it. We must dig into it. And we walk away with deeper meanings. Can anyone do that? Well, sure. Can anyone learn math? Can anyone learn English? Uh yeah. With hard enough scholarship.
4. An individual can/should read the Bible and interpret the Bible for themselves.Again, see #2. See #3. And stop LYING about what Protestants believe. But yes, an individual can/should read the Bible and pray for God to speak to them through it. And again, you talk like that’s a bad thing.
Now on to what is certainly going to be a rosier depiction of Catholics, I’m sure …
1. The authority of the Apostles and the Church preceded the Bible and the Sacred Tradition of the Church is an equally infallible authority. This is something ALL Christians can claim. The BODY OF CHRIST is the Church. The Apostolic Tradition extends to EVERY believer. And it’s not a Catholics only club with Pope’s having secret meanings that only they have the authority to understand. And I can’t help but notice that NOWHERE in that statement is the Holy Spirit, the helper Jesus promised. And in Thesalonians, Paul is talking about the Traditions taught like baptism. Communion. The Great Commission. And reading scriptures. THOSE are the traditions. Paul is exhorting the Church as Thessalonica to remain true to the teaching of Christ. STOP TAKING THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT.
2. The authoritative interpretation of the Bible is the prerogative of the Catholic Church. SIGH. The “Church of the Living God” that Paul is talking about is THE BODY OF CHRIST. As for 1 Tim 3, that is NOT speaking the Catholic Church as it didn’t exist then. It was the early Messanic church which was setting up places for people to meet. The so called “little c.” But the Big C IS the Body of Christ. And 1 Tim 3 and even Matt 18 fits into that. All Christian churches can lay claim to it. It’s not a Catholics Only Club. How many times must I refute this?!
3. The Bible is not always easy to understand (2 Pet 3:15-16) and needs to understood within its historical and contextual framework and interpreted within the community to which it belongs. Your point is? That’s EXACTLY what Protestants believe. As for the Peter is talking about in 2 Peter 3:15-16 … PEOPLE COULDN’T READ BACK THEN. People were uneducated. Paul, who was, knew that. But People do read now. People ARE educated. They LEARN to break down text, to look for what the therefore is there for.That’s just a fact. And we have the added benefit’s of the Internet. Bible commentaries. Bible concordances. Parallel Bibles. Bible Studies. Sunday School. Meetings with Pastors. Bible Colleges for crying out loud. And every Protestant has their own copy of the Bible, which wasn’t possible until the printing press was invented. Isn’t it interesting that once the bible was readily available, that the Catholic Church was challenged in their dogma? As such, Everyday people are a heck of a lot closer to Paul’s scholarship than they are Peter’s.
Finally, #4. 4. Individuals can/should read the Bible and interpret the Bible for themselves—but within the framework of the Church’s authoritative teaching and not based on their own “private interpretation”
Who are the holy men Peter is speaking of? Well, gee, let’s look up a few verses. If you real ALL of 2 Peter 1 (instead of cherry picking the last two verses), you see that Peter is speaking about ALL Christians. “them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ … According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: …. For if these things BE IN YOU AN ABOUND, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful IN THE KNOWLEDGE of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Really, this religious BIGOT in this article makes it sound like Protestants just make crap up when we read and follow it. Well, I submit that we aren’t the once declaring that painting talk or seeing that there’s Mary in a Tortilla, or any other NONSENSE that has NO SCRIPTURAL FOUNDATION WHATSOEVER.
Pot. Meet Kettle. Your black.
Dumb question: Which comments are those of the commenters and which are Steve’s? (I’m on Firefox browser, don’t know if that makes a difference.) Steve, can you put your responses in bold or italics or a different color or clearly specify which responses are yours so it’s easier to read? Thank you.
James DeRuvo
You JUST PROVED all of Steve Ray’s points.
Of course your section on Catholics demonstrates the true bigotry that has existed since pro-testantism began – that being what you “assume” Catholics know and do.
If you think you can be guided by the Holy Spirit to understand the Scriptures, then why are there so many non-denominational and denominational churches out there who can’t agree on what is doctrine and not doctrine.
I think I’ll quote YOU here: “Pot. Meet Kettle. Your black.” Now attend to your kettle because it’s boiling over.
James DeRuvo July 24, 2015 at 1:56 AM
What. Utter. NONSENSE.
James DeRuvo OK let’s break it down … shall we?
Good idea.
1. There is no binding authority but the Bible alone; You talk like that’s a bad thing.
It’s false. Therefore, by defnition, it is a bad thing. It’s a heretical lie. It preaches a false gospel and those who spread it, incriminate themselves in so doing.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
2. There is no official binding interpretation or interpreter; each person ultimately is their own pope. What. Utter. NONSENSE! I have never read anything so bigoted about Protestants in my life. Seriously, Rhonda. First off, Protestants don’t have a Pope. We have a personal relationship with Christ. And when he said “I will send you a Helper.” WE BELIEVE HIM. Our interpretation is from the Holy Spirit, which must be confirmed BY SCRIPTURE, and scholarly Christians also look at commentaries, talk to their Pastors, and fellow bible believing Christians. So say otherwise is disengenuous at best, and perjorative at worse.
That’s not true, James. Rhonda’s observation is very close to the truth. I’ve spoken to a great many Protestants about their faith and for most of them, it is between them and their interpretation of the Bible. If anyone, even their pastor, were to disagree with that interpretation, they would put their interpretation above their pastor’s and move on.
That is simple truth, James. Protestants are not aware of this verse in Scripture:
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Correct me, if I’m wrong. If your pastor disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible, you will set your interpretation above his. Right or wrong?
3. The Bible is perspicuous (i.e., easy to understand) and it can be interpreted and understood by anyone. Another NONSENSICAL statement designed to demonize Protestants. A protestant believes that the bible must be STUDIED. We must find out what the therefore is There for. We must pray over it. We must dig into it. And we walk away with deeper meanings. Can anyone do that? Well, sure.
Let’s compare to the Bible. What does the Bible say concerning the question, “Can anyone understand Scripture?”
Apparently, the Jews could not. Here’s what Jesus said to them:
John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
In summary, Jesus said, “you read the Scriptures and don’t understand them. Because the Scriptures tell you to come to me, but you reject me.”
Right or wrong?
Let’s look at another:
Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Now, here, a very learned man, described as being in charge of the queen’s many assets, is asked whether he understands the Bible. His answer? “How can I, except some man should guide me?”
So, Scripture is telling us that even learned men, need to be guided by the Church, represented here by Philip, to the proper understanding of the Bible.
And finally,
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Here, St Peter warns that many people will not only find the Scriptures hard to understand, but they will twist the meaning into something which is not intended, to their own condemnation.
So much for the perspicuity of Scripture.
Can anyone learn math? Can anyone learn English? Uh yeah. With hard enough scholarship.
Uh, no. I know many people who have never learned either. And they did their best. But of course, Protestants consider themselves everyone’s judge. And they don’t accept people’s testimony about their own efforts.
4. An individual can/should read the Bible and interpret the Bible for themselves.Again, see #2. See #3. And stop LYING about what Protestants believe. But yes, an individual can/should read the Bible and pray for God to speak to them through it. And again, you talk like that’s a bad thing.
It’s not a lie. Protestants interpret the Bible for themselves and blame the Holy Spirit for the thousands of different and contradicting interpretations that they have produced. Leading to a bewildering number of denominations professing to teach different versions of the gospel.
That’s a simple fact that anyone can confirm by looking in the telephone book under the word, “church”. You will find thousands of competing Christian churches, across the street from each other.
Bur God is not the author of confusion. Protestants, on the other hand, very much so.
Now on to what is certainly going to be a rosier depiction of Catholics, I’m sure …
1. The authority of the Apostles and the Church preceded the Bible and the Sacred Tradition of the Church is an equally infallible authority.
Correct.
This is something ALL Christians can claim.
But don’t. Most Protestants have discarded Sacred Tradition and hold to the Bible alone. As, apparently, do you. Since you said:
1. There is no binding authority but the Bible alone; You talk like that’s a bad thing.
The BODY OF CHRIST is the Church. The Apostolic Tradition extends to EVERY believer.
But you’ve discarded Apostolic Tradition and adopted Protestant novelties and errors.
And it’s not a Catholics only club
Well, yeah, it is. Because Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church and gave her the charism of infallibility. That is, Catholic only. But you deny it and reject. In so doing, you have alienated yourself from the Body of Christ, the Church, the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth (1 Tim 3:15).
with Pope’s having secret meanings that only they have the authority to understand.
And I can’t help but notice that NOWHERE in that statement is the Holy Spirit, the helper Jesus promised.
Keywords: In that statement.
But it is true throughout the New Testament in many other statements. The difference between Protestant and Catholic, is that the Catholic Church understands the entire Bible. All 73 books!
And in Thesalonians, Paul is talking about the Traditions taught like baptism. Communion. The Great Commission. And reading scriptures. THOSE are the traditions. Paul is exhorting the Church as Thessalonica to remain true to the teaching of Christ. STOP TAKING THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT.
Well, it is you taking things out of context. Let’s look at these Traditions.
Do you believe that Baptism is symbolic or effective? Many Protestants believe that Baptism is merely symbolic. But the Church which Jesus established, the Catholic Church, teaches that Baptism is the washing of regeneration, necessary for the washing away of sins:
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Protestants, in general, deny this truth which St. Paul was talking about in 2 Thess 2:15.
Let’s look at the next one. Communion. Do you believe that the Eucharist is the Real Presence of Jesus Christ? Obviously, St. Paul did:
1 Corinthians 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
But you don’t. Or if you did, you would worship the Eucharist. But you don’t. Only Catholics worship the Eucharist. Because we believe the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.
Correct me if I’m wrong.
2. The authoritative interpretation of the Bible is the prerogative of the Catholic Church. SIGH. The “Church of the Living God” that Paul is talking about is THE BODY OF CHRIST.
The Catholic Church. Here’s what Scripture says:
First, Jesus Christ appointed a Pastor as head of the entire Church:
John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Does any Protestant denomination recognize one man, appointed by Christ as Pastor over the entire Church? No.
The Bible says:
The Church which is infallible (1 Tim 3:15; Eph 3:10). Does any Protestant denomination accept this teaching? No.
The Church which is united (Eph 4:5). Does any Protestant denomination accept this teaching? No.
Does any Protestant denomination accept any of the following Biblical teachings?
The doctrines of the Catholic Church which are distinctive from other churches:
Purgatory (1 Cor 3:15).
Eucharist (1 Cor 11:23-27).
Communion of Saints (Rom 12:12-20).
The Mass and the necessity to attend (Heb 10:25-31).
The Sacrament of Confession (Heb 13:17).
The Sacrament of Holy Orders (1 Tim 4:14).
The Sacrament of Baptism (Titus 3:5).
Justification and salvation by faith and works (Rom 2:1-13).
NO.
It is the Catholic Church which is described in Scripture. It is the Catholic Church which St. Paul is talking about.
As for 1 Tim 3, that is NOT speaking the Catholic Church as it didn’t exist then.
The Catholic Church existed from the moment that Jesus Christ said:
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
It was the early Messanic church which was setting up places for people to meet. The so called “little c.” But the Big C IS the Body of Christ. And 1 Tim 3 and even Matt 18 fits into that. All Christian churches can lay claim to it. It’s not a Catholics Only Club. How many times must I refute this?!
You haven’t refuted anything. It is we who are refuting you. It is the Catholic Church which is described in Scripture. None other.
3. The Bible is not always easy to understand (2 Pet 3:15-16) and needs to understood within its historical and contextual framework and interpreted within the community to which it belongs. Your point is? That’s EXACTLY what Protestants believe.
No it isn’t. And your presence here is proof of that. You are trying to introduce your Protestant errors to this community of Catholics. You are trying to introduce your errors. YOUR errors. Therefore, you are portraying yourself as a pope.
As for the Peter is talking about in 2 Peter 3:15-16 … PEOPLE COULDN’T READ BACK THEN. People were uneducated. Paul, who was, knew that. But People do read now. People ARE educated.
They LEARN to break down text, to look for what the therefore is there for.That’s just a fact. And we have the added benefit’s of the Internet. Bible commentaries. Bible concordances. Parallel Bibles. Bible Studies. Sunday School. Meetings with Pastors. Bible Colleges for crying out loud. And every Protestant has their own copy of the Bible, which wasn’t possible until the printing press was invented. Isn’t it interesting that once the bible was readily available, that the Catholic Church was challenged in their dogma? As such, Everyday people are a heck of a lot closer to Paul’s scholarship than they are Peter’s.
You seem to be contradicting yourself. You’ve just described a bunch of people who act as though they are their own popes. But you denied that, originally.
And, what do you have against St. Peter’s theology? It is in the Bible, isn’t it? Or have you cast 1 and 2 Peter out of your Bible?
Finally, #4. 4. Individuals can/should read the Bible and interpret the Bible for themselves—but within the framework of the Church’s authoritative teaching and not based on their own “private interpretation”
Who are the holy men Peter is speaking of? Well, gee, let’s look up a few verses. If you real ALL of 2 Peter 1 (instead of cherry picking the last two verses), you see that Peter is speaking about ALL Christians. “them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ … According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: …. For if these things BE IN YOU AN ABOUND, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful IN THE KNOWLEDGE of our Lord Jesus Christ.
That’s all true. How does that change the fact that he also said:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Really, this religious BIGOT in this article makes it sound like Protestants just make crap up when we read and follow it.
It’s true. For example. Where does the Bible say to follow the Bible alone? I don’t see it anywhere. But that is what Protestants claim.
And where does the Bible say that we are saved by faith alone? Scripture says:
ames 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Well, I submit that we aren’t the once declaring that painting talk or seeing that there’s Mary in a Tortilla,
Scripture says:
1 Thessalonians 5:2 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
or any other NONSENSE that has NO SCRIPTURAL FOUNDATION WHATSOEVER.
But you are the ones claiming to be once saved always saved. Nonsense which has no Scriptural foundation:
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Pot. Meet Kettle. Your black.
That might apply to other denominations. But not to the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the One, Holy and Apostolic Church which Jesus Christ established.
James,
Can there more than one version of the Truth? Objective truth is true whether know it exists, or whether we believe it or not.
1 Timothy says that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth. Would God allow the Church to teach error? No, Jesus promised to protect the Church (Mt 16:18)
If there is one version of truth, and the Church is the pillar of truth, the Holy Spirit must guide us to that truth because God cannot contradict himself.
If under your formula, the church = body of Christ = all believers, why are there 40,000+ protestant denominations that all claim to possess the truth?
Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I have come to believe that what the Catholic Church teaches is true. According to your definition of the church, you can disagree with me, but you cannot tell me I am wrong. If you tell me I am wrong, then you are in fact your own “pope” (able to infallibly say what truth is). You would also have to say that the 39,999+ other denominations are also wrong. If you merely disagree with me, then Jesus’s promise to give us an authoritative Church is not true.
Yes, everyone should read and study the Bible, the Catholic Church agrees with you on that. But just as in learning math or English, what authority would you trust more to give you the right answer; a fellow student or the one who published the textbook and validated its authenticity?
Yes, Paul’s statement about Apostolic Tradition includes baptism, Holy Communion, the Great Commission and Paul is exhorting the Church as Thessalonica to remain true to the teaching of Christ (as taught by the Apostles). You are correct. How do we know what Christ and the Apostles taught? We can believe the Catholic Church, whose teaching on this has not changed since the times of the Apostles (as confirmed by Church history and by reading the writing of the early Church fathers), or we can look at the 40,000+ interpretations that continue to change and multiply.
The Catholic Church is not a denomination. The Catholic Church is THE Church started by Jesus Christ (Mt 16:18) so you cannot say that in 1 Tim 3 that the Catholic Church did not exist then.
I suggest that before you start throwing the word “BIGOT” around that you reflect on the tone of your own response. You may also want to read up on Steve’s own Protestant background and his journey to Catholicism.
The differences between Catholic/Protestant approaches to the bible is that both camps err by not RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD of TRUTH (2 Tim 2:15), the same what Hymenaeus and Philetus were doing .. resulting in overthrowing the faith of some. That’s why 2 Peter 3:15-16 says that those that are unlearned and unstable then eventually resort to wresting of the Paul’s epistles out of context unto their own destruction. There is no clear distinction how one must operate under LAW versus GRACE – I believe most churches CATHOLIC/PROTESTANT co-mingle the two – when their operations are separate. No AUTHORITY has a clear mandate till date. Without rightly dividing the word of truth, heresies creep in such as saying the CHURCH has replaced Israel as God’s elect people – the error of replacement theology.
STEVE RAY HERE: according to James everyone is wrong yet HE stands alone, rightly interpreting Scripture! Hum? Isn’t that have 40,000 different denominations get started?
STEVE RAY HERE: according to James everyone is wrong yet HE stands alone, rightly interpreting Scripture! Hum? Isn’t that have 40,000 different denominations get started?
Mr Ray… What I have quoted is what saith the scripture. None of my opinion counts. If you claim otherwise, then the onus is on you to prove that the Catholic Church cannot err and teaches a correct biblical approach of rightly dividing and not rightly interpreting, the Holy Scriptures. You will have to explain what is rightly interpreting a term not found in the Holy Scriptures. Does interpreting means translating into one’s own language? You will say Jesus promised that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it – meaning even if the Church teaches error, right? no wrong. Because St. Paul the special apostle to the Gentiles who was given a direct revelation from Jesus – In his epistle to Titus 2:7 he exhorts Titus that in doctrine Titus must show un-corruptness. So when a Church teaches a mix of truth and error (i.e. obvious a counterfeit) – what does it tell you? God did not give exclusive mandate to any Church denomination – God simply says – rightly divide – does the Catholic Church do that? Again the onus is on you to prove it.
STEVE RAY HERE: Again, Pope James has spoken! All must heed his interpretation and papal pronouncements! He is the one who can pull Scripture out of context to fit his personal theological view!
Sarcasm? Yeah, a little, but guys like this are a dime a dozen and get tedious. Sorry.
James Robnison July 25, 2015 at 10:51 PM
The differences between Catholic/Protestant approaches to the bible is that both camps err by not RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD of TRUTH (2 Tim 2:15),
Not true. That is the Protestant problem and one which you have inherited. The Catholic Church is the one which wrote 2 Tim 2:15 and follows the instructions of Scripture, to the letter. Let me show you.
Scripture says:
Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Do you deny that the Word of God is the Word of Truth? And Scripture tells us that the Word of God is passed down by our elders in their conversations.
If you continue to read, Scripture tells us that we submit and obey our elders:
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves:
Had you ever considered these verses? I doubt it. Because you are here teaching a Sola Scriptura sort of faith. Whereas, Scripture tells you to submit, obey and learn from your elders in the Church.
the same what Hymenaeus and Philetus were doing .. resulting in overthrowing the faith of some.
That is what Protestants and other sola scripturists, like yourself, have done. Your example of rebellion to Church authority has led to many making a shipwreck of their faith.
That’s why 2 Peter 3:15-16 says that those that are unlearned and unstable then eventually resort to wresting of the Paul’s epistles out of context unto their own destruction.
As you have done.
There is no clear distinction how one must operate under LAW versus GRACE –
Yes, there is. But you, along with the Protestants, have discarded the Traditions of Jesus Christ and therefore do not recognize the distinction.
Operating under the Law is the Old Testament method of obeying the Ten Commadments and making the required oblations and sacrifices required of the Mosaic law.
Operating under Grace is keeping the Ten Commandments and receiving the grace of God by the Sacraments which Jesus Christ gain for us salvation.
I believe
You believe. But we are not subject to your errors. We follow the Church which Jesus Christ established.
most churches CATHOLIC/PROTESTANT co-mingle the two – when their operations are separate. No AUTHORITY has a clear mandate till date.
The Catholic Church has the clear mandate. It is the Catholic Church which Jesus Christ established and to whom Jesus Christ gave authority. The Church described in the New Testament is clearly, the Catholic Chruch. Which other Church has a Pastor elected by Jesus Christ to tend to His Flock?
Without rightly dividing the word of truth, heresies creep in such as saying the CHURCH has replaced Israel as God’s elect people – the error of replacement theology.
The fact is that the Old Testament has faded away:
2 Corinthians 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
But the Church remains.
Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Thus, it is those in the Church which are the elect.
James Robnison July 26, 2015 at 5:09 AM
Mr Ray… What I have quoted is what saith the scripture.
But you didn’t stop with the quote. You added your interpretation. Therein lies the problem.
None of my opinion counts.
I couldn’t have said that better myself.
If you claim otherwise, then the onus is on you to prove that the Catholic Church cannot err and teaches a correct biblical approach of rightly dividing and not rightly interpreting, the Holy Scriptures.
You’ve got that backwards. The Catholic Church was here way before you or any other Protestant was even born. It is the Catholic Church which wrote the New Testament and the Catholic Church which produced the Bible. It is the Catholic Church which brought Christianity to the world.
Do you know what that means? It means that you are the one challenging Doctrines which were established by Jesus Christ 2000 years ago and which still stand today. Therefore, it is your responsibility to prove your doctrines are correct and Catholic Doctrine false.
You will have to explain what is rightly interpreting a term not found in the Holy Scriptures.
Not true. What your request for our explanation means is that you have accused the Catholic Church of being wrong without knowing what is right. You don’t know whether the Catholic Church is right or wrong. You are simply accusing her of being wrong because that’s what Protestants do. They protest. Even when they don’t know what they are protesting.
Does interpreting means translating into one’s own language?
Here’s what the Scripture says:
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
That means that you’re not allowed to do what you are now doing. You are allowed to take the Word of God and twist its meaning against the Church which Jesus Christ established and commanded to make disciples of the world:
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
You will say Jesus promised that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it –
Don’t need to anymore. You just did.
meaning even if the Church teaches error, right? no wrong.
Meaning the Church will never teach error. Once a church teaches error, as your churches have done from their inception, then hell has prevailed upon them.
Because St. Paul the special apostle to the Gentiles who was given a direct revelation from Jesus – In his epistle to Titus 2:7 he exhorts Titus that in doctrine Titus must show un-corruptness. So when a Church teaches a mix of truth and error (i.e. obvious a counterfeit) – what does it tell you?
That Protestant churches are corrupt and thus false.
God did not give exclusive mandate to any Church denomination – God simply says – rightly divide – does the Catholic Church do that?
Yes.
Again the onus is on you to prove it.
On the contrary, you claim to know that the Church has taught something wrong. Prove it. As for us, we have already shown you where you are wrong. And we proved it from Scripture.
But I’d like to leave you with the same question that Steve asked. Do you really think, that after 2000 years, you’re the only one who knows how to understand Scripture?
Oops! Just correcting some gaffs.
In my reply to James DeRuvo, it looks as though I said:
with Pope’s having secret meanings that only they have the authority to understand.
But I didn’t. That was a segment of JD’s objection which I overlooked. My response to that is:
You’re confused because the Protestants discarded the Traditions of Jesus Christ. Then, you learned from them their traditions of men. Therefore, you think that Catholic Doctrines are 2000 year old secrets, because the Protestants from whom you learned, never taught you the true Teachings of Jesus Christ which are the Sacred Doctrines of the Catholic Church. But the Catholic Church has been passing down the “secret meanings” of Christ commands to the whole world, from the moment that Jesus said:
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
To James Robinson, I said: “You are allowed to take the Word of God and twist its meaning against the Church which Jesus Christ established and commanded to make disciples of the world:”
Of course, I meant,
“You are NOT allowed to take the Word of God and twist its meaning against the Church which Jesus Christ established and commanded to make disciples of the world:”
De Maraia
you have said -“But I’d like to leave you with the same question that Steve asked. Do you really think, that after 2000 years, you’re the only one who knows how to understand Scripture?”
The question arises here is whether you are a spiritual believer or the one who simply bounces all over the Holy Scripture like a ping-pong ball? Are you established in the faith and do show forth the manifestation of the life of Jesus Christ living through you – Ephesians 3:9, Philippians 3:10? Are you a Jew?
“The question arises here is whether you are a spiritual believer or the one who simply bounces all over the Holy Scripture like a ping-pong ball?”
Projection much?
James Robnison July 27, 2015 at 12:25 PM
De Maraia
Hello James.
you have said -”But I’d like to leave you with the same question that Steve asked. Do you really think, that after 2000 years, you’re the only one who knows how to understand Scripture?”
Yes, I did. Will you answer the question?
The question arises here is whether you are a spiritual believer
I believe wholeheartedly in the Teachings of the Catholic Church. What is the difference between a “believer” and a “spiritual believer”?
or the one who simply bounces all over the Holy Scripture like a ping-pong ball?
You seem to be implying that I did not “divide the word of truth”, rightly. But then, you didn’t address any of my arguments. It sounds as though you simply want to “poison the well” in order to disguise the fact that you have no response to my rebuttals.
Are you established in the faith
Yes. I’ve been a Catholic for 33 years. Are you established in yours?
and do show forth the manifestation of the life of Jesus Christ living through you
Christ is my judge. But my conscience is clean (1 Cor 4:3-4). How about you?
– Ephesians 3:9, Philippians 3:10?
Great verses. What do you want to say about them?
Are you a Jew?
I am Catholic.
How about you, are you a Jew?
I have an answer for you question ‘where does it say that God created the universe out of nothing’ – 2 Maccabees 7:28. Thanks for all your books, CDs, DVDS, keep them coming!
Thank you and may God bless you!
James DeRuvo,
Here’s a short very simple bit of information every Protestant needs to know:
The church had NO BIBLE TO READ for the first 400 YEARS of the church. All the early Christians had was the Church under one head and everyone believed THE SAME THING, not 40,000 different teachings in 40,000 different “churches”. It’s important to know who gave you the Bible:
The Bishops of The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
canonized the Holy Bible at the direction of the Pope, at the Council of Carthage in 397 AD, after much of the preliminary work was accomplished at the Council of Hippo in 393. The 73 divinely inspired texts they included under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, nothing more and nothing less, comprise the Canon of Christian Scripture, the Holy Bible. NOW, the question ……Do You really think the Holy Spirit would choose the Bishops of the Catholic Church to decide on an infallible book which tells us how God wants us to live and behave if they were Heretics? The Catholic Church was chosen to give the world the book we read. I would much rather trust the folks who were chosen for that task to interpret the book correctly than folks who came 1500 years late to the party and THINK they are interpreting it correctly but somehow have split and watered down into over 40,000 different Protestant sects all teaching and believing something different yet READthe SAME WORDS. Is the Holy Spirit that confused? If the Catholic Bishops aren’t heretics, then Neither is the Catholic Church. To quote a wonderful convert to the Catholic Church by the name of Steve Ray, “When Protestants read the Bible they are picking fruit from a tree they didn’t plant. This is actually our book and we loaned it to you. You are welcome!!! ??
Linda, eloquently stated! Keep up the good work!
James DeRuvo:
One more thing:
This from another knowledgeable convert to the Catholic Church, Dr. Peter Kreeft:
On the Bible issue, he refers to the church preaching that forms the basis for writing the Bible and the approval needed from the church to ascertain the contents of the Bible. To this he applied the axiom: “a cause can never be less than its effect. You can’t give what you don’t have. If the Church has no divine inspiration and no infallibility, no divine authority, then neither can the New Testament.”
So what he is saying is…. If you think the Church that gave you the Bible has no authority and is heretical, then you also have to believe that the New Testament has no truth and is, in effect, null and void!
POT? KETTLE? BLACK? Hmmm….40,000 Protestant sects who all teach and believe something different.
So I was listening to this priest preach on YouTube and then scrolled through the comments. I was flabbergasted! There was so many non-denominational people who commented just like JD above. Why do you people even come to a Catholic Website Or YouTube channel and throw your crap around? What are you trying to prove? Your ignorance? One comment though really stood out for me, personally this really makes sense.. “The Protestants get the stupid Catholics and the Catholics get the clever Protestants” Sooo true!
STEVE RAY HERE: Thanks Mel!
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