Nathaniel wrote:
Thanks for the 6-tips which I see is taken from your baptist upbringing. I will use it to win Catholics to Christ and out from the RC Church. It will add to the list of 5 Catholics I’ve already successfully evangelized them out of the RC Church. Keep the tips coming 🙂
I responded:
Nathaniel: You’ve got a long way to go my friend if you view this as a race – I’ve helped over 4,000 Protestants discover the fullness of faith in the Catholic Church.
And if you consider the statistics you come up short again. The number of converts to the Catholic Church that revert back is about 1%; whereas, the number of people who leave Catholicism for a Baptist-type tradition, about 50% will eventually return to the Catholic Church.
And while the traffic continues back and forth between Catholicism and Fundamentalism, some observers have suggested that whereas a two decades ago more Catholics were leaving to become Fundamentalists, it has now reversed and there are more Fundamentalists becoming Catholics than the other way around.
Another thing you may have missed: there are no notable Catholics becoming Protestants but there are many notable Protestants becoming Catholics (e.g., Dr. Francis Beckwith, former president of the Evangelical Theological Society).
This is confirmed by Protestant writer Kim Riddlebarger, “While evangelicalism is growing numerically, apparently there are not as many notable Roman Catholics becoming evangelicals as vice-versa” (Roman Catholicism, ed. John Armstrong [Chicago: Moody Press, 1994], 240).
In other words, the converts to the Catholic Church (and there are untold thousands, just watch Marcus Grodi’s The Journey Home on EWTN) are among the best and brightest that Evangelicalism has to offer, whereas those you are converting out of the Catholic Church tend to be the most biblically illiterate and uneducated.
You’re on the wrong and losing side my friend. I would encourage you to read more carefully, study Scripture more deeply, pray more seriously, take your head out of the sand and join the throng of joyful converts into the Catholic Church. You can read more about this Nathaniel here and thanks for writing.
For hundreds of conversion stories from many different religions and denominations to the Catholic Church, click here.
This Post Has 68 Comments
The range war between Roman Catholics and every other expression of Christianity has been going on, yea, these centuries. Intramural belt notches are fine if that is what lights your candle. Everyone’s got their niche. I prefer hitting the trail and watching God bless hearts and minds that have up to now, rejected Christ because they just never got it. Muslims are the best. When they become aware that the Holy Spirit is introducing himself to them for the first time … It brings tears and joy. Like Jesus at the well. It is the greatest satisfaction.
Nathaniel: One’s motivation for trying to convert others should be love; your comment gives evidence that your motivation is hatred.
Bill 912:
Yes… my motivation is love for the truth, no one evangelizes using hatred. Your reasoning is far fetched and it certainly points to your upbringing since majority of catholics are from generations in-doctrinated against anything that does not originate from catholic sources, Just like the Jehovah’s witnesses culr relgion indoctrinate their followers.
Nathaniel, your hatred just came through loud and clear again.
Bill 92: No point in talking further. It surely implies that Steve had the same motives of hatred since he used the same tips while he was a baptist. Only now is he is catholic, so you look the other way round. So it confirms your indoctrination.
Nathaniel Fernandes August 11, 2013 at 6:38 AM
Bill 912:
Yes… my motivation is love for the truth,
Not so. If your motivation were love for the Truth, you would come to the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15), the Catholic Church.
no one evangelizes using hatred.
That is also not true. There are many anti-Catholics using hateful tactics against the Church which Jesus Christ built.
Your reasoning is far fetched
I’ve just proved your premise for this conclusion to be false. Therefore, logically, this conclusion must be false as well. In fact, it is your reasoning which is far fetched.
and it certainly points to your upbringing since majority of catholics are from generations in-doctrinated against anything that does not originate from catholic sources,
You are mistaken again. Protestants object to Catholic Teaching because we incorporate the philosophical systems of Plato and Socrates and many other great non-Christian philosophers. And because Catholic Teaching also incorporates the legal system developed in ancient Rome. But you claim exactly the reverse.
The fact is that Protestants don’t understand therefore acquire a fear of Catholic Teaching. Then they respond as you are doing, lashing out blindly at the Truth which Jesus Christ deposited in the Catholic Church.
Just like the Jehovah’s witnesses culr relgion indoctrinate their followers.
Jehovah witnesses are Protestants like you.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Count me out Nathaniel
Instead of evangelizing atheists and other non Christians, Nathaniel prefers preaching to Catholics who already profess Christ. One would have thought that the former would be the priority of a zealous soldier. He saw my comment on this blog some time ago and tried me out but it was a monumental failure. He has several unanswered questions to deal with from me that I wonder how he finds time to be on this blog! The fact that he has not converted to the CC is simply because he considers himself infallible, and not because of the Gospel. After chatting with him, I discovered he actually hates what others told him about the CC, and not what he himself discovered by research, and he is too proud to learn. Remember, God will not forgive you if you mislead uninformed people out of his church.
Leo
Hi all .. a couple of comments from scripture. Go search
– You will die in you sins, Jesus said, if you do not know who is he (John 8:24). In other words Jesus told the Pharisees that they will die in their sins if they cling to their “traditions”. Does the cap fit your church?
– You are “spiritually” dead in sins and trespasses. Are you?
In reply to De Maria’s comments:
– That is also not true. There are many anti-Catholics using hateful tactics against the Church which Jesus Christ built. You are mistaken again. Protestants object to Catholic Teaching because we incorporate the philosophical systems of Plato and Socrates and many other great non-Christian philosophers. And because Catholic Teaching also incorporates the legal system developed in ancient Rome.
As you have rightly admitted about the incorporation of philosophical systems of Plato and Socrates and legal system developed in ancient Rome … be aware that the New Testament Church that Jesus Christ established first at Jerusalem by the Apostles on the day of Pentecost did *not* practice “religious syncretism”. A church that preaches religious syncretism is not the Church of Jesus Christ but a false Christ. In a church that preaches religious syncretism, the preeminence of Christ is “lost”. Read the Epistle to the Colossians that St.Paul wrote , because he had to deal with such an issue that cropped up. In that epistle Paul tells the believers at the Church at Colosse that Christ is all sufficient since they “meandered” away from Jesus Christ – the only true living God. Now the onus is on you to prove that Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church and he also introduced other philosophical systems.
De Maria:
Jehovah witnesses are Protestants like you
Do you know that JW’s incorporated works of Roman Catholic Jesuit scholars when they compiled their corrupted NWT Bible? So there is a “common” ground both camps share. So your statement: Jehovah witnesses are Protestants like me, hold no “water”.
From the inside cover of the JW NWT Bible:
The Greek text that we have used as the basis of our New World translation is the widely accepted Westcott and Hort text (1881), by reason of its admitted excellence. But we have also taken into consideration other texts, including that prepared by D. Eberhard Nestle and that compiled by the Spanish Jesuit scholar Jose Maria Bover and that by the other Jesuit scholar A. Merk. Where we have varied from the reading of the Westcott and Hort text, our footnotes show the basis for our preferred reading.
Leo was just proven right.
As I read the comments including those of Nathaniel, his words resembled my radical Protestant friend so much. I was sad for days of not understanding why he would pray for me to have peace, but he used words such as “hatred, persecution” from me as a member of the Catholic Church. Another confusing part is that they are so willing to pray for the conversion of Catholics, but I would suggest that they stop doing that if they refuse to acknowledge the heavenly family: the Blessed Mother of God and all the Saints and Angels. Wow, what radical pride to ignore those that are in heaven already. Even the Son of God humbled Himself to become man to teach us Humility. The Word of God which is Christ Himself supposed to teach us that. Sign”…
If Nathaniel had Jesus in his heart, he would not be so hateful. He is brimming with hatred for Catholics. Because they believe differently than he does, it all goes back to narcisissm, not Jesus. We love you my friend, Nathaniel, because Jesus loves you. Keep investigating the claims of the Catholic Church. I did, and it brought me back to His church, and the great joy of encountering Him every Sunday in the Catholic Mass. I don’t expect you to listen, pride is going to stand in the way. That is one of the tools Satan uses to keep people away from Jesus in the Eucharist.
The scriptures may hurt us with the “truth” but it will never comfort us with a “lie”.
STEVE RAY HERE. Nathaniel, no doubt. But the lie of Protest-ism falsely comforts and definitely hurts not only the individual, but the body of Christ as a whole by causing schism.
Nathaniel, You are correct. The scriptures may hurt us with the truth. Actually, they comfort me because they do hold the truth, and that is one reason I am Catholic. The Catholic church is the only one now that sticks like glue to the scriptures, even if what Jesus says is “uncomfortable.” Look at how many protestant churches have rejected the eucharist, because they find it uncomfortable, just as some disciples found Jesus’ words uncomfortable and walked away. I had a healing encounter with Jesus, and I feel His presence when I am at Mass. I know he’s there, and it is so comforting and joyful, I cry when I am there.
Julie, I see you are a sincere person who loves God. But we must understand sincerity does not translate into the truth. We can definitely be sincerely wrong.
A new item you may want to read: Former Pope Benedict XVI said God told him to resign his pontificate. The former pope Benedict has claimed that his resignation in February was prompted by God, who told him to do it during a “mystical experience”. Benedict’s reported remarks contrast with the explanation he gave to cardinals when he announced his resignation on 11 February. “My strengths, due to an advanced age, are no longer suited to an adequate exercise of the Petrine ministry,” he said then. (Source: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/21/pope-benedict-god-resign-mystical-experience).
In the past several years, I have noticed that a lot of the reason why people somewhat follow the Church of Rome is because of ‘mystical experiences,’ apparitions, eucharistic ‘miracles,’ and other signs and wonders – (2 Thessalonians 2:9).
Of course we believe in miracles. I especially. I have heard people talk about whether Jesus is real. I want to yell, I know! I know! He IS real. I had a healing encounter with Him. Right after I prayed for Him to remove the pain, and save my life, I felt the pain lift up and out of the top of my head. It was real. And it never came back. I am being deliberately vague because I don’t want to tell the whole story. But the healing was real. So, I needed to find Him after that and keep Him in my life. He is present at the Catholic Mass! Right when the priest says the prayer over the host, I feel He is there, even if I am not quite paying attention. I cry involuntarily and I can’t describe the joy that I feel. I have been in protestant churches since the healing and saving, and I didn’t feel Him there. Not that He is NOT there, I just did not feel that I encountered Him there. AND, I wanted to be sure that if He, the Jesus that I love with my whole being, founded a church, I wanted to be in THAT church. I read writings by the early Christians, Early Church Fathers. That left no doubt that the church was (surprisingly) very Catholic in practice and belief right after the resurrection. It seems so strange, but there it was. And then the church gave us the Bible, I discovered. THANK YOU JESUS for this wonderful church, and for staying with us and being with us through that church, and for coming right to me after I prayed for you to help me. God bless, Nathaniel. I rarely share my story. People tend to think you are crazy when you talk about stuff like that.
BTW, I eventually shared my story with my daughter, who said she was having trouble believing in Jesus, the resurrection, etc. She asked me, Why would He save you when He lets so many other people die? I don’t have an answer for that. I don’t know. I can only tell you what happened to me. Also, one other thing about that. I was a heavy drinker before the healing incident. Interestingly, that is gone now. And, I noticed, encountering the eucharist really does change you. As I imagine it is supposed to. An encounter with the Holy Spirit inside and out, so to speak, in a way that we humans can grasp. I crave Jesus just as you do, Nathaniel. I think Jesus knew that we would.
The early church fathers did not practice Eucharistic adoration as practiced currently in the Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox deny it outside the liturgy, the later Melanchthon Lutherans rejected the idea, yet they all believe in real presence. I need to ask why ONLY the Roman Catholics, with some Anglo-Catholics, maintain this practice. Could it be that other conservative, Bible-believing, Tradition-holding groups believe that eucharistic adoration is in error? Evangelicals have concerns that when you limit the “physical presence” of Jesus to a physical object, you have created by definition an idol.
Did early Christians use a round eucharistic host? A careful comparison of what is taught in the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church along with eucharistic practices should make this clear to any truly interested in the truth – see 1 Corinthians 11:1 and Notice what Jesus said in 1 John 2:6.
Article 3, under the Seven Sacraments of the Church in the Catechism of the Catholic Church discusses the eucharist. Section II asks and answers the question, What is this Sacrament Called? Several names are listed, including “The Breaking of Bread” (#1329). It also states the following:
Now the above is scriptural. Here are some related scriptures – Matthew 26:19,26, Mark 14:22, Luke 22:19). Notice, it is very clear that Jesus BROKE the bread on Passover (Pasch means Passover). The Apostle Paul confirmed that it was the practice of the early Christians to break bread – (See 1 Corinthians 10:16, 1 Corinthians 11:23-24).
The Apostle Paul followed Jesus’ practice and broke bread. Furthermore, notice what The Catholic Encyclopedia teaches in its article “Host”: …the first Christians…simply used the bread that served as food. It seems that the form differed but little from what it is in our day. The loaves discovered in an oven of a bakery at Pompeii weighed about a pound each. One of these, being perfectly preserved, measured about seven inches in diameter and was creased with seven ridges which facilitated the breaking of the loaf without the aid of a knife. (Leclercq, Henri. “Host.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 7. Nihil Obstat. June 1, 1910. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1910. 28 Feb. 2011 ). Notice the article basically says that the practice of the first Christians, which is consistent with the Bible, was to use normal loaves of bread that resemble what is still in use today. And that it was broken. (The article never says where the round host actually came from). Thus, to have a Passover/eucharistic ceremony where they bread is not broken is certainly not imitating Jesus, the Apostle Paul, nor the early Christians. It is a change that the Church of Rome must have gotten outside of the Bible.
Yet, in the eucharistic ceremonies in the Catholic Church, the bread is not broken. Instead, it is a round host that the Catechism of the Catholic Church says can/should be worshipped and adored (CCC #1378, p. 385). Yet, there is no indication that the early Christians or the apostles did anything like that. They basically taught that it was to be eaten.
Worshipers of sun-gods worshiped round symbols. Early Christians did not. See what God says in Deutronomy 17:3. Ezekiel 8:16 says – ” And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD’S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. What conclusion can we form if we take a look at this picture: http://anglicanuseliturgy.webs.com/20081028_plb_monstrance_7w.jpg OR THIS http://www.todayscatholicnews.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/MonstranceAlone-156×253.jpg
Julie, I see that you ofter use the word “feel”. Its the normal parlance used by Charismatics and evangelical Pentecostals, both camps share same beliefs of “feelings” and “experience”. Human feelings are deceptive and you are simply choked up/overwhelmed byhuman emotions. From your comments I can discern, you are confused, you do not truly know who the “Real Jesus Christ” is and what was his purpose to come to earth 2000 years ago to die on a roman cross. The Jesus that you perceive is “Jesus – the healer”. Certainly Jesus healed the sick when he was on the earth, but he did it only to authenticate his Messiahship.
You said – “BTW, I eventually shared my story with my daughter, who said she was having trouble believing in Jesus, the resurrection, etc. She asked me, Why would He save you when He lets so many other people die? I don’t have an answer for that. I don’t know.” You truly do not know the real Jesus. See what Jesus said in John 8:24 – “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins”.
Remember feelings or human emotions are deceptive, that is why Proverbs 3:5 says “Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding”.
Religion wants to fit us with glasses like the one’s Steve mentioned in respect when Catholics use Catholic glasses whereas Protestants us Protestant glasses; But the Lord wants to open our eyes. Religion, if it shows us the Word at all, shows it to us through a filter of tradition. The Lord wants us to be free to preach and believe the Word as it is.
Nathaniel, You want to think that I am being deceived because I am Catholic. You are wrong. But thank you for your concern. 🙂
I suppose then that you don’t feel the presence of Christ. That’s too bad. God bless.
Hey Nathaniel,
Thank you for the reminder about Proverbs 3:5 which says “Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding”.
Just a question for you:
How do you know YOUR interpretation of Scripture does not “lean unto thine own understanding” of Scripture? Can you explain?
Do you see why Scripture itself in 1 Tim 3:15 points Christians to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth which is the Church?
How about Ephesians 3:10~11? (His intent was that now, THROUGH THE CHURCH, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.)
And how about Matthew 18:17? (If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.)
So Nathaniel, how do you know YOU ARE NOT LEANING UNTO THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING when it comes to your interpretation of Scripture?
Dear Nathaniel,
I also have some friendly questions for you:
Do you think the exchange of wedding rings is ok to do?
Do you think ‘giving away the bride’ is an ok practice?
What do you call each day of the week?
Do you think we should display the cross in our churches?
Did the Hebrews sin by having a tabernacle and bringing it around with them?
What do all these things have in common? They all have pagen origions. You life is full of pagen practices and origions. The difference is whether or not you attach the pagen meaning or some other meaning.
And a few more to the point: Was Martin Luther an idolator for believing in a style of True Presense in the Eucharist as well? How about for his belief in the Sinlessness of Mary, the Perpertula Virginity of Mary, and her Immaculate Conception? Was he right to want to eliminate the books of Hebrews, Jude, 2nd and 3rd John, 2nd Peter, James and Revelation?
Then why do you follow his errant belief of Sola Scriptura, private interpretation – which is condemned in Scirpture (2 pet 1:20) – Sola Fide – which is also condemned in Scripture (James 2:24) and rejection of Church Authority?
You have built your house upon the shifting sand. You need to build your house on the Rock, which is Peter who is Divinely attached to the Rock of Christ.
I love how those who believe based on Sola Scriptura, and lecture Catholics on the Bible, but fail to recognize that the Bible came from the RCC, through the grace of the Holy Spirit.
Hello OneRock
YOUR QUESTION: Do you see why Scripture itself in 1 Tim 3:15 points Christians to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth which is the Church? So Nathaniel, how do you know YOU ARE NOT LEANING UNTO THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING when it comes to your interpretation of Scripture?
To give you the appropriate answer, tell me the following dependency, how would you interpret:
(i) 2 Timothy 2:15 – “…rightly dividing the Word of Truth” <– what does "rightly dividing the truth" mean and how you do it? Has God provided in scripture how to do it?
(ii) Compare your "assumptions about how God will fulfill His promises to the church with how God fulfilled His promises to Israel.
(iii) Have you even considered the possibility that God could fulfill His promises to the church by some means other than the Roman Catholic Church?
(iv) Does the term "church" referred in 1Timothy 3:15 point to the Roman Catholic Church headquartered in Rome? given the fact that there's no evidence whatsoever that Christ and the apostles wanted a worldwide denomination to govern all churches, settle all doctrinal disputes, interpret scripture for every Christian.The apostles never established a worldwide denomination centered in Rome, with all of the authority the Roman Catholic Church claims to have, no matter how practical the Catholic form of church government may seem to be.
Dear Poorknight:
Many thanks for your questions .. yes there are various stuff till today with us that are of pagan origin, but Christians do not make such idolatrous stuff as object of faith. For Christians, Jesus Christ is the only object of faith. If Martin Luther believed in eucharistic adoration .. yes he is an idolator, after all he comes from the side of the same coin. The Eucharist in the Monstrance, is nothing but a glorified form of Sun Worship. And yeah, if he removed books, so also the RCC also added books. Christians don’t follow Martin Luther, but follow Jesus Christ because Jesus is the Word and the truth. Again I will point you the St.Paul’s epistle to the Colossians to proclaim the preeminence of Christ, read thar epistle and deduce why he wrote that epistle.
You have built your house upon the shifting sand. You need to build your house on the Rock, which is Peter who is Divinely attached to the Rock of Christ.
Now Peter has become divine? What does Ephesians 2:20 or 1 Peter 2:6 say?
Also note: Christ Did Not Make His Church Infallible As The Catholic Church Teaches.
Hatred, blinding pride, and an inability to conceive even the possibility of one’s fallibility: a wall which cannot be penetrated by facts or logic, only by Grace.
Nathaniel, PLEASE EXPLAIN to us then HOW YOU KNOW in your interpretation of Scripture YOU ARE NOT LEANING UNTO THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING (Proverbs 3:5)?
Among all the different Protestant denominations with all their contradicting doctrines (and even including the Catholic Church), it is YOUR interpretation of Scripture which is correct and which is not leaning on a personal (and incorrect) understanding of Scripture?
Hey, maybe you can convert some of the Catholics here if you can explain to us why you are correct and all the others are wrong (including even the Catholic Church which God used to give us the Bible) when it comes to the correct understanding of Scripture. 🙂
So how do you know?
Looking forward to your explanation instead of another false accusation against Catholic teaching.
GOD Bless!
1.) I am a Christian saved by the precious Blood of the Lamb.
2.) God in his amazing grace amd mercy, saved me from my sin, when under conviction I realised how I was a desperate, destitute and wicked sinner before a Holy God, and that he sent his only begotten Son to die for me on the cross to obtain the forgiveness of my sins and was buried and rose the third day redeem, reconcile me to God obtaining me an irrevocable justification and salvation, now and future forever sealed with the Holy Spirit.
3.) As a Christian, I have the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ) that lives in me, to guide me in all truth.
4.) I am purely saved by God’s grace, and it is nothing I can offer or do to merit salvation nor is salvation wrought in a man’s heart, because salvation is a gift of God wrought in Christ Jesus. I simply come with empty hands of God given saving faith “Just As I am” to the cross believing/trusting everything what Christ God incarnate in the flesh, did in his all sufficient atonement.
5.) I truly know that salvation is in the person of Jesus Christ and not in a Church. The various epistles attest to this.
6.) When I interpret scripture, I know the Holy Spirit in me provides me guidance, so I lean not unto my own understanding but let scripture interpret scripture – its that simple. If you don’t have the indwelling Holy Spirit within you, all scripture interpretation will be skewed at best because another Spirit is now controlling you – in The RC Church its the Magisterium who will interpret scripture for you, so you will rely whatever they say – all you have to do is to obey sheepishly. If the Holy Spirit is guiding the RC Church through the Magisteriums Intepretation, than one only just needs to filter the intepretation and see if it lines up with scripture – and woefully it does not. Examine yourself if the RC Church has faithfully upheld the truth of scriptures till date.
7.) Scripture interpreting scripture is a scholarly technique commonly known as exegesis, and it is a very proper way to interpret scripture. Not necessarily always, but there IS wisdom in using the Bible to interpret the Bible. One of the reasons we know exegesis is reliable is because the bible is infallible, so using other scripture to HELP understand what is being spoken in a particular passage is ONE of the methods to avoid being led astray with false doctrine.
8.) God’s disclosure occurs in the context of his intersection and interaction with his creation. He reveals himself according to what he is doing in relation to his plan and program for all ages. This is why his speech is interlinked with his revelation. As he speaks, he reveals and as he reveals it is according to what he is doing. Revelation is according to God’s activity, not our understanding. What he has done has culminated in his Son, who fully reveals the Father and he has done so for the sole purpose of reconciling humanity to himself, which makes it a very personal and beautiful thing. It is no wonder that the Old Testament demonstrates actions and promises that foreshadow what will be accomplished in the Son. We see this succinctly in Hebrews 1:1-2;
We must understand the connection between God’s activity in the Old Testament with the written word, the presence of Christ on earth and his teaching, and the
apostles’ commission to be proclaimers of that message. They validate the testimony of that message and what that means for body of Christ, his Church today built on the foundation of the prophets and apostles (Ephesians 2:20). So reading the bible as divine revelation means considering how each component relates to his disclosure according to what he is accomplishing with respect to His plan of salvation. Revelation provides a succinct and beautiful unity of the 66 books of the bible.
9.) Revelation becomes the guide to interpretation according to what God is doing. We can then take the author, audience, genre of literature and theme into consideration to give us a fuller understanding against the backdrop of God’s overarching plan.
10.) The Bereans were commended for checking out what they were being taught. Again, Interpreting scripture with scripture is not the only way that must be used, but divine revelation must be analysed on how God is unfolding and dealing with people right from the Old Testament to the New Testament (Genesis – Revelation), the New Testament being the final new covenant by the Shed blood of the lamb the Lord Jesus Christ and eternal life available to anyone by faith trusting the merits of Christ’s atonement for mankind. That is why I asked you the question on 2 Timothy 2:15 as what does “rightly dividing the Word of truth” means – which you do not have an answer. Does God guide us on how how to righly divide the Word of truth in scripture?
11.) Having a accurate Bible translation like the KJV is also important. How can the Roamn Catholic Magisterium accurately interpret scripture when its relies of corrupted bibles?
God Bless you too!
Onerock:
Also another observation is that i find that Catholics quoting of scripture comes mostly from the Gospels. Which means the Gospels are only used as proof-texts to support Catholic theology, but the Gospels describe the life of Christ, and is a “moving target”. So the Catholic theology being stuck in the gospels is in error by making doctrine built around the gospels. From the Book of Acts, God divine plan of revelation is moving from the Jews to the Gentiles. If any Church builds its foundations in the period covering the gospels, than that church is in error.
So Nathaniel,
You claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit when you interpret scripture and by letting scripture interpret scripture;
Can you explain if it was the Holy Spirit who told you to use the KJV bible?
Using “scripture to interpret scripture” (and not relying on extra-biblical beliefs), where did you derive this belief to use the KJV?
Or isn’t it true that you are relying on outside, extra-biblical teaching which taught you to use the KJV? (Maybe some pastor told you?)
By the way, are you under the impression you are the only non-catholic christian who claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit when you are making interpretations about bible teachings?
How about all the other “Spirit led” non-catholic, bible christians who disagree with your interpretations about bible teachings?
Who is correct? You? Can you explain?
Here’s a quote from the famous Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon:
“It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others.”
Looks like that quote very much applies to you. 🙂
GOD Bless,
onerock
I think maybe Nathaniel is going to skate on onerock’s questions. Good questions onerock! I was wanting to ask Nathaniel if he can name any Christian martyrs from before the fourth century A.D. who were not Catholics. Thank you.
Onerock:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is “spiritual discernment” which is the ability to tell the difference between truth and error. With careful research the KJV contains God’s inerrant and infallible word preserved in the English Language. The Holy Spirit of Christ who indwells in all true believers testifies with your spirit that Christ has the preeminence and not religious syncretism – the later being led by the Spirit of Anti-Christ. People like Wycliffe,
How about all the other “Spirit led” non-catholic, bible Christians who disagree with your interpretations about bible teachings? Who is correct? You? Can you explain?
First off, when we talk about interpretations – I don’t mean that we must make the scripture and make them as proof text to support our own theology or to suit a pre-conceived notion, but study the word of God as apply the principles daily to our lives, as how God directs it. This involves the study of rightly dividing the Word of Truth (2 Timothy 2:15), study the bible dispensations. etc. This the correct procedure that God himself reveals we should follow in 1 Corinthians 10:32. For those other Bible Christians, one would have to gauge whether they rightly divide the Word of Truth according to what God has revealed. Remember: Christ himself did not make his Church infallible. Even St Peter committed error and St Paul rebuked him (Galatians 2:11). But the RC Church claims the need to have a central authority is far fetched – with no guarantee whatsoever that the Church won’t be in error. From its inception the RC Church has not always supported a biblical worldview, but a secular world view whose concerns is worldly power, money and domination. An ecumenical agenda to teach all religions are one which is certainly not what Christ would envisage. Only Christ is the head of the Church whether he is visible or invisible.
Here’s a quote from the famous Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon: “It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others.”
Please don’t misquote a great preacher the world has ever produced in Charles Spurgeon. As usual taking things of context in order make a case. This is usual tactic the RCC uses to throw smoke screens. Reading the entire text of Charles online, he was making observations commenting on non-usage of commentaries though himself did not follow suit. So he is not guilty for his observations.
True Bible-believing Christians always make an effort to not “lean unto their own understanding” (Prov. 3:5) However, this does not mean that Christians can’t get alone with God in their own private homes and prayer closets to sincerely seek His Face. Instead, the trust, faith and reliance of the Bible-believer is placed solely in the written word – the King James Bible. A Bible-believer’s faith in God’s written word, is commensurate and DIRECTLY RELATED TO his faith in the risen Lord Jesus Christ. One cannot exist without the other. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Word made Flesh (John 1:14). The Holy Bible is the word written on paper. And BOTH share the same name – the “Word of God” and the “word of God”. This is no accident. And because of this we receive the word “as it is in truth, the word of God” and NOT “as the word of men” (1 Thess. 2:13).The scriptural prophesies that the life of Christ fulfilled at His first advent, PROVES to us that His words are “true and faithful”, and can be relied upon apart from the input of extrabiblical sources. The contradictions, divisions and differing Bible interpretations within churches and denominations are ultimately the result of three things:
1.) Taking-away from God’s words;
2.) Adding-to God’s words;
3.) Misapplying God’s words (i.e. taking a fact or truth from one part of the Bible and trying to make it fit into another part of the Bible where it does not belong OR taking a passage “figuratively”, when it should be taken “literally” and vice versa).
It is the Holy Spirit, through His word, which leads and guides us unto all truth (John 16:13). We do not need the words of pagans, priests or popes to verify ANYTHING. It is written:
This applies to corrupt and/or mislead Bible preachers and teachers as well. And finally, the ground upon which we stand may be summarized thusly:
We DO NOT trust man or ourselves.
We DO trust God’s words.
Julie:
can only tell you what happened to me. Also, one other thing about that. I was a heavy drinker before the healing incident. Interestingly, that is gone now.
Obviously human feelings are deceptive. St. Paul says in Ephesians 5:18 – “And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit”. Obviously your experiences are due to alchohol widthrawal symptoms. Have you come to true repentance? but I suspect it is mere conscious conviction which all men are capable of
experiencing and which can drastically alter a person’s way of life. Under this kind of conviction the drunk will quit drinking, the adulterer will quit their philandering, and the nonreligious will act deeply religious. The problem with this kind of ‘repentance’ is that sinners are deceived into thinking everything
is alright, while in reality they are in worse shape than they were before this experience-“Woe (judgment) unto you, scribes and Pharisees (moral, sincere, religionists), hypocrites! For ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves”- (Matthew 23:15).
I was wanting to ask Nathaniel if he can name any Christian martyrs from before the fourth century A.D. who were not Catholics.
Saint Stephen was stoned and some 2,000 other Christians suffered at the time of Stephen’s persecution Acts 6:8-8:3. lol 🙂
Nathaniel, I know that you are to proud to listen but just so you know catholics are not stupid.
Are you saying that the early Christians who did not use the king James version were in error?
Before the king James version, how did God let his word known?
You say catholics base their teachings only from the Gospels so they are wrong. Well let’s pretend for a minute that the CC actually bases her teachings from the gospels alone. Now, show me a scripture passage from the other books of the NT that contradict the teachings about the power to forgive sins, or the true presence.
And just so you know, I too received Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour
Nathaniel, And where are St. Stephen’s remains?
I am sharing here a Facebook post by St. Paul Street Evangelization:
St. Paul Street Evangelization
A Southern Baptist was stunned to learn the true reason why Protestant bibles are missing 7 books while Catholic Bibles have all 73 books. Jeff asked this Protestant: “So why do you think Martin Luther removed those books?” Surprisingly, after thinking about it, the Baptist said: “I bet they had things in them that disagreed with Luther’s theology and teachings.” With much enthusiasm, Jeff replied, “BINGO!” Jeff then briefly explained the history of the Bible, specifically how the Catholic Church was responsible for collecting these 73 inspired writings and preserving them. The early Christians knew that only the Popes and Councils had the authority to settle questions about the Bible, such as what books belonged in it, and that individual Christians were never allowed to just throw out books they personally didn’t like.
Jeff then shared some of the doctrines taught in these books that Protestants reject. Surprisingly, the Baptist concluded: “I guess I need to seriously study this. It sounds like the Catholic Church holds the authority of scripture. I guess I don’t know if my church is even teaching the right things without those missing books… I’m going to have to do a lot of praying and research.”
The team gave him plenty of materials and an invitation to call or email with further questions. Jeff wants other Catholics to know: “More often than we realize, the Holy Spirit will present us with opportunities to greatly impact someone. It could be one word, one action. In this case, I realized that this man was open and searching.”
Julie,
Nathaniel, And where are St. Stephen’s remains?
I wouldn’t be too concerned of St.Stephen’s mortal remains, cause he is with heaven Jesus enjoying eternal bliss with his creator.
Note that he was a saint while he was still alive. All true believers are saints in the body of Christ and will reign with Jesus Christ in heaven. True believers don’t need to be canonized as saints after their deaths. Come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and don’t get influenced what men tell you. While all this history stuff kinda sounds like suave music to your ears, buying indulgences, go on aimless pilgrimages, atone for your own sins that leads to self-righteousness and swollen pride … its all sinister designed to get your focus away from the Truth the way and the life – Jesus Christ.
Well, Nathaniel, that was a great way of avoiding my question! Based on your last post, I see that you don’t know anything about Catholicism. Meanwhile, let us all pray for the wonderful Baptist seeker who talked to St. Paul Street Evangelization, that he will find the truth, friendship with Jesus, and joy in His church.
I forgot. And God bless you also, Nathaniel. 🙂
Here’s a quote from the famous Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon: “It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others.”
Please don’t misquote a great preacher the world has ever produced in Charles Spurgeon. As usual taking things of context in order make a case. This is usual tactic the RCC uses to throw smoke screens. Reading the entire text of Charles online, he was making observations commenting on non-usage of commentaries though himself did not follow suit. So he is not guilty for his observations.
– See more at: https://www.catholicconvert.com/blog/2013/08/08/nathaniels-converted-5-catholics-out-of-the-church/#sthash.XdHvpj4P.dpuf
So Nathaniel, since you are claiming the quote I provided from Spurgeon is out of context and does not apply to you, are you saying then that YOU are not belittling what the Holy Spirit has revealed to other Christians?
Based on YOUR interpretation of Scripture, you are making the assertion that the Holy Spirit guides you directly (and without the Holy Spirit using the Church authority as a conduit for this guidance); Are you not belittling what the Holy Spirit has revealed to this other christian, St. Paul when he wrote:
1 Corinthians 12:28 KJV:
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:29 KJV:
Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
Ephesians 4:11 KJV:
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
So when it comes to the correct interpretation and understanding of Scripture, defend your assertion then that the Holy Spirit guides you directly without the use of God established church authorities as conduits for this guidance.
Nathaniel, did the Holy Spirit reveal to us Christians there is such thing as a Church heirarchy which God uses as the channel to provide us His guidance concerning the correct interpretation of scripture?
(Hey mind you, these bible quotes I provided you are not from the gospels.) 🙂
Again, it is the same tactic of pulling verses out of context. The bible the not support roman catholic theology.
– Since you quote Eph 4:11 … you will notice there are no roles mentioned for priests or popes. You will also need to
understand what are the roles of those mentioned in the said verse vis-a-vis the roles of priests and popes. In the New
Testament covenant, the role of the levitical priesthood ended. Christ became the univeral priesthood who offered up
himself to the sins of the world as he the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
In Ephesian 4:11, St.Paul writes to Timothy who was in Ephesus exhorting and training him how the structure of the local
church is organised. Each local New Testament church is automomously independent of other local churches and is not based
on the “lording-type” of concept the Roman Catholic Church promotes. In other words, these local churches established by
paul and others do not have a central authority. Christ himself did not make his Church infallible and it is easy to see
that Catholics have the authority in the wrong place. The authority is not in the body, but in the Head (Eph. 1:22-23; Col.
1:18). The ruling is not in the kingdom, but in the King (Heb. 7:1-2; Rev. 1:5-6). The authority is in not in the church,
but in Christ (Matt. 28:18; 1 Pet. 3:22). The church is not the Savior, but simply the body of the saved (Acts 2:47; Eph.
5:22-24). The early churches had to earnestly contend for the faith, and to continually be on guard against error arising
from within. The doctrine of an “infallible church” causes the Catholic Church to fail in this. The Catholic Church is a
church which neither recognizes nor corrects its errors.
Again its important to know that in a New Testament Church only Christ has the prememinence, being the visible and invisible head of the Church. My question to you is whether
this is the case with the RCC? Many teachings of the RCC are man made riddled with theological errors. For instance the RCC teaches
that Christ came to earth to show us the way to be right with God, in other words he did not fully accomplish redemption for the human race, but
the scripture saith the “HE DID IT ALL”. Do you understand what has Christ has accompished on the cross for you being a
destitute wicked sinner? Every year the RCC calls to vatican an ecumenical meet of all relgions with the intention of
establshing a “one-world religion” – is this the concept Christ taught? Can one say the Roman Catholic Church is led by the
Holy Spirit? Nay.. its a false Anti-Christ spirit?
Nathaniel, did the Holy Spirit reveal to us Christians ..
The question is do you follow Christ only? Christian means “Christ”-ians a name given to followers of Christ only. What did Jesus say of the Holy Spirit in John 15:26? My observance for about 2 years the Catholic Church is making use of Christian terminology in all its publications and press coverage. The pope even claims himself as the self-appointed “Pastor of the Universal Church”. The Catholic church needs to reform itself first, but its too steeped in pride and arrogance. Also my observance is that majority Roman Catholics are “boisterous” in nature. Probably the cause surely points to the worship of the eucharist – worshipping the sun god.
“Every year the RCC calls to (sic) vatican(sic) an ecumenical meet(sic) of all relgions(sic) with the intention of
(sic)
establshing(sic) a ‘one-world religion”…
Lie.
Ecumenism: The doctrine of the ecumenical movement promoting cooperation and better understanding among different religious denominations; aimed at universal Christian unity.
Satan’s purpose is to achieve a One-World Religion, and ultimately lead all their followers to worship the man of sin, the Antichrist.
The philosophy and agenda are innocent sounding enough, and no doubt are promoted by many sincere people; HOWEVER, ecumenism is one of Satan’s primary tactics to infiltrate the New Testament Church, corrupting souls and leading them astray from the Word of God. Ecumenism is of the Devil, and I will explain to you clearly why.
The Bible teaches that it’s better to be divided by truth, than to be united by error. 2nd Corinthians 6:14, “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?” Bible-believing Christians are commanded not to form unequal yokes with unbelievers (i.e., the unsaved). This means that a New Testament Church ought not yoke together in any capacity with religious belief systems of the world that damn men’s souls to Hell forever. Christianity and Christ is lost in a church that amalgamates a various hotch-potch of religious belief systems other that Christ only. Whether it be the heresy of Baptismal Salvation, Works Salvation, Sacramental Salvation or Lordship Salvation; these are all perversions of the simplicity that is in Christ (2nd Corinthians 11:3-4). Eternal life is a free gift (Romans 5:15; 6:23) that you simply receive by faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God (John 1:14; 20:31).
The Bible uses the simplest of terms in 2nd Corinthians 6:14… “light” verses “darkness,” and “righteousness” verses “unrighteousness.” There is no common denominator. There is no unity. This is exactly what God is saying to us. James 4:4 tells us that friendship with the world makes a person God’s enemy. It is a shame that professed Christians are forming ties with the enemies of God. Those religious teachers who pervert the simplicity of the Gospel and corrupt the Doctrine of Christ are the children of darkness. We ought not hobnob and rub shoulders with them in ecumenical apostasy and sinful compromise. This is why it is evil to support, promote or yoke together with any religion that perverts the Gospel or corrupts the Doctrine of Christ. Thus, Biblical Christians ought not fellowship with heathen. What fellowship hath light with darkness?
Lying, hatred, a refusal or inability to concede the possibility of his own fallibility, and pride that blinds him from recognizing these things: a hideous combination that cries out for prayer; continuing dialogue may only re-enforce the shields he has placed around his mind.
Bill912:
All your “Shakespeare” type quotes reflects your worldly thinking – a fruit of a natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. – Provide some valuable contribution as others herein have taken time to do so, and stop trolling on to blogs posting “two-liners” that speaks of your ignorance. Hope you’re paying your taxes.
I rest my case.
Nathaniel,
So in very clear and simple terms, when it comes to the correct understanding and rightly “dividing the Word of Truth (Bible)”, your position is that YOU are INFALLIBLE and therefore can be referred to as the Pillar and Foundation of Truth?
Isn’t that your position? (YES / NO) 🙂
Thanks and GOD Bless!
onerock
OneRock,
No. That is not my position as described by you. Only the scriptures are infallible. Christians must simply obey what the scriptures teach and apply the principles to our daily lives. It is the standard rule of faith.
The whole New Testament Church that comprises the body of saved souls are altogether the pillar an ground of truth with Jesus Christ being the head of the body on earth. Look at this illustration: http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/dispensa/10-1.GIF. The truth is God Word as Jesus said in John 17:17 “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth”. The New Testament Church upholds the truth of God’s Word. We as Christians are called to ensure its preservation to be a shining light in a dark lost corrupted sin ridden world. But at the same time it is not implied that the New Testament Church will fullfill its resposnsibility infallibly as Jesus did not envisage that at his first coming. It will only be certain at his Second Coming and that is why St.Paul writes in Ephesians 4:13 – “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ”.
1 John_5:13 – These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Colossians 1:14 – In whom we have redemption through his blood even the forgiveness of sins.
OneRock,
I have replied to your above post, but I guess Steve is not compelled to approve it I guess 🙁
God Bless
STEVE RAY HERE
CORRECT. SEEMS TO HAVE GONE FAR ENOUGH. TOO CONDESCENDING AND VAPID ARGUMENTS. SORRY BUT THE IRRATIONALITY GETS TEDIOUS. IM IN ISRAEL AND HAVE TO MODERATE. TO READ ALL YOUR POSTS IS …
Nathaniel, I can assure you, that your sentence “majority of catholics are from generations in-doctrinated against anything that does not originate from catholic sources” is completely not true. I recently converted to Catholicism and was not bought up in the Catholic tradition. In fact I fought it myself for years. However, messing with psychics and clairvoyants put me into a mental instituation where I was classified as psychotic. The love of friends at a local parish, the local parish priest, the saving grace of our Lord, and the sacrament or the Eucharist healed me. Every week I had the Eucharist, I was being healed. It is now 7 months, no medication needed, and I have never had so much peace and freedom in my mind and in my soul. The beauty and the truth of the Catholic Church is perfect. It is a sleeping giant, being awoken…the truth will continue to set people free
Michelle, I would sympathize with your predicament but its lacking truth in comparison to the true light of the Word of God that shines brightly in this dark world of ours. From your post, it can be seen you are “confused” whether its the sacrament OR Eucharist that has healed you. Neither is true and that is the first deception you’re under. I stand by my sentence.
It is a sleeping giant, being awoken …
BEWARE: The sleeping giant is actually the “son of Perdition”, the man of sin – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 – Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Dear Nathaniel,
You missed a couple implications: If Martin Luther is an idolator why do you follow him in your non-Biblical dogma of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide?
Why do you follow him in his subtraction of 7 books of the Bible you claim is the sole rule of authority (a claim it does not make for itself)?
Who decides what books belong in Scripture? Where is that in Scripture (chapter and verse please)?
Where in Scripture does it say that the Gospel of Mark was written by Mark (Chapter and verse please)?
Where in Scripture does it say that the canon of Scripture was closed after the death of the last Apostle? (chapter and verse please)
Where in Scripture does it say that your translators (translating from Greek, Hebrew and Latin into english) were infallible?
Where in Scripture does it say that your English teachers taught you the infallible understanding of the English language enough to understand the language used in Scripture?
What did the first Christians use to decide matters of Faith and Morals infallibly, before even one word of the New Testament was written or do you believe God let them all be lost?
I never said Peter was divine. I said he was made the ‘rock’ – upon which Christ will build His Church – because Christ is the Rock.
God Bless,
Poor Knight for Christ
I pray, Nathaniel, that you take your own Scirpture quote to heart: 2 Thessalonians 2:3 – Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
What man started your denomination or your ‘non denomoniatal’, denomination? Your pastor? His pastor? John Smyth? John Calvin? Ulrich Zwingli? Martin Luther? It all comes down to a man. Every Protestant denomination comes down to a man.
I can tell you historically and Biblically who started mine: Jesus Christ Mt 16:18.
God Bless you,
STEVE RAY. I AM ALLOWING NATHANIEL’S RESPONSE FOR COMEDIC VALUE AND TO DEMONSTRATE HOW SAD AND CONFUSED, HOW SELF-IMPORTANT AND FOOLISH ONE CAN BE WHEN CUT LOOSE FROM THEIR ROOTS AND THE BIBLE.
I AM ABOUT TO CLOSE THIS COMBOXES DOWN SINCE ITS GONE FAR ENOUGH AND I FIND NATHANIEL’S VAPID COMMENTS TIRING.
You missed a couple implications: If Martin Luther is an idolator why do you follow him in your non-Biblical dogma of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide?
I’ve already stated I’m a Christ-ian and a follower of Jesus Christ to the core. It is enough that Jesus had me in mind before the foundation on the world began to die for my sins and to reconcile me to God. It is enough when Jesus said “.. thy word is truth”. The scriptures is the standard rule of faith to weed out false teachings. I am not a follower of mortal men. Catholics are sincere people but deny the saving power of Jesus Christ by following teachings of men which is diametrically opposed to the scriptures. Can you say without a doubt that you are right with God at this very moment? Perhaps you are thinking, “Well, I’m following the teachings of the Church on how to be right with God”. Then how would you agree that those beliefs should match God’s written Word, the Bible? Perhaps your answer is “No”, or “I am not sure?
In response to your other questions, they are simply straw man arguments catholics usually put forward in defense of the catholic Religion. I have an answer to all of them but will desist for as i’ve said – they are simply a straw man arguments not worth discussing. The core answer i can give right now is that the scriptures are God breathed and the Holy Ghost used men as instruments to write God’s final revelation to mankind. The ownership of the scriptures belong to God and so no individual, organisation, or Church denomination can take credit for it. Early chritians knew what were the inspired scriptures and which ones were spurious before any church, body or council came along.
I pray, Nathaniel, that you take your own Scirpture quote to heart: 2 Thessalonians 2:3
That scripture quote was in response to Michelle who talked about the Catholic church being a sleepin giant being awoken. Now think for a moment if you have any spiritual discernment in you. If you claim that Jesus Christ established the Catholic church, then surely it would be actively pursuing doing the “Great Commission” Jesus commanded, since its inception, but it hasn’t happened that way. St. Paul’s evangelization programe for instance, is a recent excercise. Besides a Church that Jesus Christ established is a Church who truly knows him and abides what he taught. Also it is a church that does not encourage religious syncretism (an mix or amalgamation or inclusion of other beliefs systems such as Plato or Socrates as De Maria pointed out). The Christian faith is unique in comparision to other world religions. It stands on its own, and gives absolute assurances of spending eternity that no other religion can boast of. The Christ in the Christian faith has preeminence. If the Christian faith is mixed with other belief systems, than Christ loses his preeminence and becomes a mere “puppet”. This was the primary concern of St.paul when he wrote his epistle to the Colossian Church. Can you boast if Christ is the only object of faith in the Catholic Church? as its only visible and invisible head? So as to reconcile your claims that the Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ as per Matthew 16:18?
Matthew 16:18 is another taking verse out of context rightly-dividing error and another straw man argument. The former pope Benedict has conceded the fact and affirms what i’ve said above. Read the article that appeared in 2011 titled: “Pope insists that Bible’s truth is found in its totality” – source: http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2011/05/05/pope-insists-bibles-truth-is-found-in-its-totality/
God Bless you abudantly to come to the knowledge of His saving grace in Christ Jesus.
I AM ABOUT TO CLOSE THIS COMBOXES DOWN SINCE ITS GONE FAR ENOUGH AND I FIND NATHANIEL’S VAPID COMMENTS TIRING.
The real crux is that those vapid comments are a bitter pill to swallow. Its futile exercise to create a false cause for Roman Catholicism when a person is not even born into the catholic faith but came from the batptist faith. Your testimony i’ve read is not convincing. Its that same unleavened bread warning Jesus gave about the pharisees. You will eventually face a dead end in the fires of hell. Can you be frank enough to enlighten everyone as to when catholic apologists came on the scene?
Steve, Nathaniel is whistling in the dark, isn’t he.
Nathaniel Fernandes August 27, 2013 at 4:48 AM
Hey, you’re back? Sorry to be a bit late on the conversation. I hadn’t seen your comments.
To give you the appropriate answer, tell me the following dependency, how would you interpret:
(i) 2 Timothy 2:15 – “…rightly dividing the Word of Truth” <– what does "rightly dividing the truth" mean and how you do it? Has God provided in scripture how to do it?
Yes. Several. But more importantly, He provided Sacred Tradition.
Huh? What?
Jesus Christ did not write any Scripture. Jesus Christ established a Church and commanded that Church to teach His Doctrines. We call these Doctrines, Sacred Tradition. The Church wrote the New Testament based upon the Sacred Tradition of Jesus Christ.
The reason that Protestants can’t understand the Scriptures is because they set aside the Sacred Traditions of Jesus Christ upon which the New Testament is based.
(ii) Compare your “assumptions about how God will fulfill His promises to the church with how God fulfilled His promises to Israel.
We don’t have assumptions. We have the truth. Jesus fulfills His promises to us through the marvelous promises of the Faith of Christ, the Seven Sacraments:
Christ died for all, that those who live will turn to him and be saved:
2 Corinthians 5:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
We redeem our sins by applying the redemptive grace of God in the Sacraments:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Titus 3:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
And those who turn to Him will come to the Heavenly Jerusalem which is the Catholic Church:
Hebrews 12:22
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
But the faithful Jews were redeemed on the Cross when Jesus died and went to Limbo and released them into heaven:
Hebrews 9:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
When Christ died, the sins of the Old Testament were redeemed by His blood and the Jews received the promise of eternal inheritance.
We receive the same promise when we are baptized:
Acts 2:37-39
King James Version (KJV)
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And every time we receive any of the Sacraments.
(iii) Have you even considered the possibility that God could fulfill His promises to the church by some means other than the Roman Catholic Church?
The Catholic Church is the means established by God. But God is greater than the Church and could conceivably fulfill His promise by any means. But this is not the way that God acts. He acts according to His word:
Acts 2:46-47
King James Version (KJV)
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
(iv) Does the term “church” referred in 1Timothy 3:15 point to the Roman Catholic Church headquartered in Rome?
Yes.
given the fact that there’s no evidence whatsoever that Christ and the apostles wanted a worldwide denomination to govern all churches, settle all doctrinal disputes, interpret scripture for every Christian.
The evidence is quite the opposite. Jesus established one Church (Matt 16:18). Not many. And He gave that Church the authority to bind and loose (Matt 16:19; 18:18); to teach all nations (Matt 28:19-20) and to forgive sins (John 20:23).
Jesus also commanded anyone disobeying the Church be cast out (Matt 18:17).
So, you’re wrong.
The apostles never established a worldwide denomination centered in Rome, with all of the authority the Roman Catholic Church claims to have, no matter how practical the Catholic form of church government may seem to be.
Yes, they did. And it remains there to this day.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Nathaniel Fernandes August 27, 2013 at 6:05 AM
Dear Poorknight:
Many thanks for your questions .. yes there are various stuff till today with us that are of pagan origin,
But they are in the Protestant religions. Not the Catholic.
but Christians do not make such idolatrous stuff as object of faith. For Christians, Jesus Christ is the only object of faith.
The Eucharist is the Real Presence of Jesus Christ. Scripture says:
1 Corinthians 10:16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
If Martin Luther believed in eucharistic adoration .. yes he is an idolator, after all he comes from the side of the same coin.
Martin Luther had many other problems. If he took communion after he disobeyed the Church, he condemned himself to hell. The Scripture says:
1 Corinthians 11:29
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
A symbol can’t do that. Only the True Presence of God can cause a man to be condemned when he unworthily participates in that ritual.
The Eucharist in the Monstrance, is nothing but a glorified form of Sun Worship.
It is the Worship accorded the Son of God. And any who refuse to offer this worship are insulting the grace of God which saved them:
Hebrews 10:25-36
King James Version (KJV)
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Yeah, Nathaneal, that means you.
And yeah, if he removed books, so also the RCC also added books.
On the contrary, the books which Luther removed were used by Jesus Christ. And the Catholic Church continues to use those books to this day.
Christians don’t follow Martin Luther, but follow Jesus Christ because Jesus is the Word and the truth.
Catholics follow Jesus Christ. And Catholics obey His word.
But you don’t. Here’s a verse you probably don’t know is in Scripture:
Hebrews 13:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Which man do you submit to and obey and consider to be responsible for your soul?
Again I will point you the St.Paul’s epistle to the Colossians to proclaim the preeminence of Christ, read thar epistle and deduce why he wrote that epistle.
He teaches us that we will be saved IF we continue in good works:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
and shows us the value of suffering for other Christians. That is a form of indulgences. Let me show you:
Colossians 1:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:
We suffer for others in imitation of Christ suffering for the Church. Do you? I didn’t think so.
Now Peter has become divine?
Almost, yeah. St. Peter is the Rock which Jesus appointed to support the Church and He gave him the power to forgive sins. And who forgives sins but God? Let me show you what I’m talking about:
Scripture says:
Deuteronomy 32:4
King James Version (KJV)
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
And also:
1 Corinthians 10:4
King James Version (KJV)
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Now consider, God is our Rock and Jesus is the Rock, correct?
Why would Jesus (i.e. God) turn to Simon and say, “You are rock”? Because He wanted all to know that Simon would be he to whom all must turn who want to know God’s will. There is a precedent for this in the Old Testament:
Exodus 7:1
King James Version (KJV)
7 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
God gave Moses godlike power:
Exodus 18:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.14 And when Moses’ father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?15 And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:
Exodus 19:9
King James Version (KJV)
9 And the Lord said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord.
God put Moses in a position of authority over the people. Jesus has done the same thing with Simon. God covered Moses with the Cloud, Jesus gave Simon His own name:
John 21:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Jesus has appointed Simon as Shepherd over His flock. And in order to bring this point home, Jesus gave Simon His own name, “Rock” or “Peter”.
This is to signify the type of authority which Jesus has given to Simon. He has the authority to bind and loose in the name of God (Matt 16:19).
What does Ephesians 2:20 or 1 Peter 2:6 say?
What does Acts 5:4 say? I’ll tell you. Acts 5:4 compares lying to Peter to lying to God. Here’s the quote:
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Also note: Christ Did Not Make His Church Infallible As The Catholic Church Teaches.
Yes, actually, He did.
Eph 3:10
Ephesians 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Sincerely,
De Maria
Nathaniel Fernandes August 27, 2013 at 2:05 PM
1.) I am a Christian saved by the precious Blood of the Lamb.
Where do you get the Blood of Christ? You believe the Eucharist is a mere symbol. Catholics are Christians by the precious Blood of Christ. But you reject that Sacrament.
2.) God in his amazing grace amd mercy, saved me from my sin, when under conviction I realised how I was a desperate, destitute and wicked sinner before a Holy God, and that he sent his only begotten Son to die for me on the cross to obtain the forgiveness of my sins and was buried and rose the third day redeem, reconcile me to God obtaining me an irrevocable justification and salvation, now and future forever sealed with the Holy Spirit.
But you reject His Sacrifice. Perhaps you don’t realize that we are a nation of priests and Christ is our portion. Don’t you know what that means? We receive Christ in the Holy Eucharist which you reject.
3.) As a Christian, I have the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ) that lives in me, to guide me in all truth.
And yet you are living in error. What does that tell you?
4.) I am purely saved by God’s grace, and it is nothing I can offer or do to merit salvation nor is salvation wrought in a man’s heart, because salvation is a gift of God wrought in Christ Jesus. I simply come with empty hands of God given saving faith “Just As I am” to the cross believing/trusting everything what Christ God incarnate in the flesh, did in his all sufficient atonement.
If you believed Christ you would obey His Church and His ministers:
Hebrews 13:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Matthew 18:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Luke 10:16
He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
5.) I truly know that salvation is in the person of Jesus Christ and not in a Church. The various epistles attest to this.
God adds to the Church all who will be saved. That is in Scripture:
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
6.) When I interpret scripture,
You do so from a vacuum because you have discarded the basis of the Scripture which is the Sacred Tradition of Jesus Christ.
I know the Holy Spirit in me provides me guidance, so I lean not unto my own understanding but let scripture interpret scripture – its that simple.
Then let us reason together. Let us go through the Scripture.
Scripture says, “hold the traditions by word and epistle (2 Thess 2:15).” Why do you hold to Scripture alone?
Scripture says, “we are justified by works and not by faith only (James 2:24). Why do you hold to faith alone?
If you don’t have the indwelling Holy Spirit within you, all scripture interpretation will be skewed at best because another Spirit is now controlling you –
Then you have condemned yourself. Because you don’t interpret Scripture correctly.
in The RC Church its the Magisterium who will interpret scripture for you, so you will rely whatever they say – all you have to do is to obey sheepishly.
That is the Teaching of Scripture. We don’t apologize for obeying the Word of God (Heb 13:17). And we don’t do it sheepishly. We obey the Church wholeheartedly because the Church is the Teacher of the Wisdom of God (Eph 3:10).
If the Holy Spirit is guiding the RC Church through the Magisteriums Intepretation, than one only just needs to filter the intepretation and see if it lines up with scripture – and woefully it does not.
Let’s do it. Let’s compare your beliefs and doctrines to Scripture. And the Catholic Church’s Beliefs and Doctrines to Scripture and see which lines up best.
Examine yourself if the RC Church has faithfully upheld the truth of scriptures till date.
Thanks be to God for providing us the infallible Catholic Church. In fact, you hold in your hands her first infallible writing. The New Testament.
7.) Scripture interpreting scripture is a scholarly technique commonly known as exegesis, and it is a very proper way to interpret scripture. Not necessarily always, but there IS wisdom in using the Bible to interpret the Bible. One of the reasons we know exegesis is reliable is because the bible is infallible, so using other scripture to HELP understand what is being spoken in a particular passage is ONE of the methods to avoid being led astray with false doctrine.
That is true and Catholic Teaching. So, let’s do it. Let’s compare Scripture to Scripture and see if your exegesis doesn’t turn out to be eisegesis. Scripture says that we are justified by works and not by faith only (James 2:24). What do you say?
8.) God’s disclosure occurs in the context of his intersection and interaction with his creation. He reveals himself according to what he is doing in relation to his plan and program for all ages. This is why his speech is interlinked with his revelation. As he speaks, he reveals and as he reveals it is according to what he is doing. Revelation is according to God’s activity, not our understanding. What he has done has culminated in his Son, who fully reveals the Father and he has done so for the sole purpose of reconciling humanity to himself, which makes it a very personal and beautiful thing. It is no wonder that the Old Testament demonstrates actions and promises that foreshadow what will be accomplished in the Son.
All well and good. God revealed the Church is the pillar of truth (1 Tim 3:15). Why don’t you believe it?
We see this succinctly in Hebrews 1:1-2;
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
We believe this. We also believe that God speaks through the Church (Eph 3:10). Scripture says so.
We must understand the connection between God’s activity in the Old Testament with the written word, the presence of Christ on earth and his teaching, and the apostles’ commission to be proclaimers of that message.
The Apostles passed that commission on to the Church which Christ founded.
They validate the testimony of that message and what that means for body of Christ, his Church today built on the foundation of the prophets and apostles (Ephesians 2:20). So reading the bible as divine revelation means considering how each component relates to his disclosure according to what he is accomplishing with respect to His plan of salvation. Revelation provides a succinct and beautiful unity of the 66 books of the bible.
Its a 73 book bible. Luther took out 7 books.
9.) Revelation becomes the guide to interpretation according to what God is doing. We can then take the author, audience, genre of literature and theme into consideration to give us a fuller understanding against the backdrop of God’s overarching plan.
Jesus Christ is He who revealed the Truth. And He didn’t write Scripture. He established a Church and commanded that Church to teach His Doctrines. It is the Church which wrote the revelation of Jesus Christ down and continues to teach it to this day.
10.) The Bereans were commended for checking out what they were being taught.
Very good example. Lets look at that episode carefully.
First, the Apostles went to the Thessalonians and taught them about Christ. And also how to find the Teachings of Christ in Scripture. Now, that Scripture had to be the Old Testament because the New had not yet been written.
But the Thessalonians did not believe the Teaching of the Apostles. They chased the Apostles out of Thessalonia into Berea.
Listen carefully, they didn’t cast out the Scriptures. They cast out the Traditions of Jesus Christ that the Apostles were teaching them. They did precisely what you and all Protestants do today. Reject Tradition.
But now, we are in Berea. What did the Bereans do? They accepted the Traditions of Jesus Christ which they were taught by the Apostles because they researched the Scriptures and found them there.
We call that Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture taught by the Magisterium of the Church. All three elements are there. The Apostles were the very first Magisterium or Teachers of the Church. The Sacred Traditions of Jesus Christ is what they were teaching. And they used the Scriptures to confirm the truth of what they were teaching.
That is the Catholic model.
Again, Interpreting scripture with scripture is not the only way that must be used, but divine revelation must be analysed on how God is unfolding and dealing with people right from the Old Testament to the New Testament (Genesis – Revelation), the New Testament being the final new covenant by the Shed blood of the lamb the Lord Jesus Christ and eternal life available to anyone by faith trusting the merits of Christ’s atonement for mankind.
from the OT to the New, God used men to teach His Will:
Exodus 18:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.
14 And when Moses’ father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?
15 And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:
That is why I asked you the question on 2 Timothy 2:15 as what does “rightly dividing the Word of truth” means – which you do not have an answer. Does God guide us on how how to righly divide the Word of truth in scripture?
Yes, He does. By Sacred Tradition and by Sacred Scripture and by the Teaching of the Church.
Yes it is found in 1 Corinthians 10:32 – “Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the Church of God:
That doesn’t even answer your own question. Sounds to me as though you asked a question for which you had no answer.
Here is what the Word of God truly says:
Hebrews 13:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
and also:
1 Thessalonians 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
and many others like that:
1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Scripture never says to study Scripture alone.
11.) Having a accurate Bible translation like the KJV is also important. How can the Roamn Catholic Magisterium accurately interpret scripture when its relies of corrupted bibles?
The KJV is the most corrupt of all Bibles. But it also supports Catholic Doctrine. Every Bible supports Catholic Doctrine and every Bible disproves Protestant doctrine.
That’s a fact.
God Bless you too!
And you as well,
Sincerely,
De Maria
Nathaniel Fernandes August 27, 2013 at 2:24 PM
Onerock:
Also another observation is that i find that Catholics quoting of scripture comes mostly from the Gospels. Which means the Gospels are only used as proof-texts to support Catholic theology, but the Gospels describe the life of Christ, and is a “moving target”. So the Catholic theology being stuck in the gospels is in error by making doctrine built around the gospels. From the Book of Acts, God divine plan of revelation is moving from the Jews to the Gentiles. If any Church builds its foundations in the period covering the gospels, than that church is in error.
I don’t know what you’re talking about there. I find myself quoting St. Paul most. But that’s probably because I’m usually debating with Protestants and they twist St Paul’s words continuously, to their own destruction. As the Scripture says:
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Good to hear from you again.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Please Nathaniel read Romans 12:2 as you think that you have all the answers.
The standard of the world is that you attack a lot of things that you do not understand and that pride is very rampant in our world.If you think that you have all the answers think again,look inside yourself,search yourself with the naked truth using the holy spirit and you will find the answer, if you look deeply. You comments show a real hatred for the church but the church is not the enemy,the devil is the enemy and he has managed to destroy many peoples faith. Using Mat 7:16,it talks about knowing people by their fruits,no matter the circumstance the truth will eventually come out,therefore look at the fruits of the church with the holy spirit of course.
Lastly you are converting Catholics not looking truthfully for Christ and it will affect your faith and congregation on the long run. If your critics say the same things,then you need to change.
I used to question the Catholic faith but last year when I started having faith,I discovered that it had a lot to offer and that many criticisms are untrue step out of your bias,read the church’s origins and you will discover that it is not questionable(Trust me). Keep praying for the salvation of all souls,I know that it can be easy to start telling people off but you need to get your facts right besides leave God to judge, your duty is to love and love till it kills you( hard right?) Its intelligent to question but what is unacceptable to act like you have all the answers
Everyone should look inside themselves and see whether they are doing God’s will,Catholic or Protestant. It makes one humble and empowered at the same time.
Catholic theology is not stuck in the old testament FYI,it is respected otherwise it would not be read during Mass. I personally love the Psalms, Isaiah and Jeremiah(Inspired by those guys and many other old testament scriptures). People from the old testament have been canonised.
Hello De Maria,
I appreciare your frequent contributions here. The truth is, Nathaniel needs prayers more than words. I had a run with him sometime ago (on Facebook) and I know he does not listen to learn, but to prove you wrong. He believes the catholic church is evil even though he has not given her teachings a fair chance.
But if you must engage him, do it in bits because he well not take the time to consider your comments, but only restate his position with new facts from anti catholics sites.
God bless
Thank you for the advice, Leo.
But I’ve met many people like Nathaniel. I don’t respond to their messages in order to convince them of anything. I respond in order to teach fellow Catholics what to say to people like Nathaniel.
Remember, we only plant seeds and water, it is God who makes the growth. If I believed that my words could convince anyone to convert to the Catholic church my task would be very frustrating. Instead, what I do, is simply given example of how to reply to a anti-Catholics.
But I do appreciate your well-meaning advice.
Thank you,
De Maria
Nathaniel, have you read the early Church Fathers?
Dear Nathaniel,
As I read through the comment boxes, I couldn’t help but be dismayed and frankly embarrassed. As a cradle Catholic, I am embarrassed. Not by my church, or its teachings, but by the unapologetic lack of love on display. It seems, just as in Jesus’s day, His own followers can be so unloving. Comments so full of “I’m right’s and your wrong’s” but without charity, without thought that you are a child of God too. Embarrassing. But, just as in Jesus day, the existence of Judases does not discount the very real, tangible presence of Jesus in the midst of his wounded, broken Church.
We seem to forget that it is not our job to judge, condemn, convert. That is the job of God and His Holy Spirit. Our ONE job is to LOVE, with kindness and with TRUTH, and with that love, we will make disciples of all nations. We have a lot to learn as disciples and as a society.
What I wanted to address though, is this subject of conversion and what it is that converts people both into and out of the Catholic Church; the common thread is that we are all desperately looking for love. For belonging. For a deep, abiding intimate relationship with the Lord. As a lifelong Catholic, I can tell you that I have not always found that relationship within the Catholic Church. Like many people outside the church, and sadly too, too many within the Church, I was more conscious of the existence of the “rules” of the Church. Don’t do this. Do that. But you see, without seeing these rules in the context of love, they are controlling, they are impositions. Only well into my parenting, was I able to see these “rules” from the perspective of the loving relationship of the Father. As I gazed upon the face of the Father, and opened my heart to understanding His great love for us, did I realize that His rules are born OUT OF LOVE! A good Father must have rules for his children to protect them from harm. We are His children. Because we are all about relationship, and family, we are NOT orphans! We do NOT only have a Father, but a Mother as well: The Church! The Church knows her children and desperately desires her children to not only love Christ, but to fall in love with Christ. This is where Christ can be found in His completeness, and this is the home where we can truly become one with Him. This is the home where we can truly abide with Him. This is the great treasure that converts to the Catholic Faith have discovered: Christ in his fullness in the Catholic Church.
Sadly too many lukewarm, uncatechized Catholics fail to see that Christ is calling them to fall in love with Him in the home of his Church, so they leave to find Christ elsewhere, though it is here within the gift of his Bride, where he can be found most perfectly. God knows us so well, that he has, through Mother Church, provided us tactile, sensory humans the gifts of receiving Him in the Sacraments. What you call “Sun Worship”, is really “SON Worship”, for God has stooped so low as to do the ridiculous: He came down from His throne to take on human flesh, to humble himself in taking the form of a slave to save us, but that is not where his love ends. His love goes further: he continues to humble himself, to invite us to share in the One saving banquet, where he becomes the one, everlasting sacrifice. He littles himself to become mere nothing…simple, humble bread and wine, physical and spiritual food for our hungry, starved bodies. This is the treasure that the great saints and martyrs found and fell in love with. This is a gift that can ONLY be found in the Catholic Church. It is a free gift that He knows that some will mock and reject, just as they rejected his very body and the gift he gave to all mankind on the cross. Yet, he continues to give himself. For me. For you. THAT is LOVE. THAT is the Jesus that I and the millions of faithful Catholics around the world have fallen in love with, and HE is the reason we remain in his broken, bruised, misunderstood Church.
If you continue to seek out Jesus to know him love him, and serve him, but most of all, to FALL IN LOVE with him, you are on the right path. If your goal is to draw others to him in this way, then he will lead you and them HOME. To HIS Church. I am certain of it!
Peace,
Christine
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